Recently had this raised as a question in my playgroup. How does reflector mage work in EDH against a commander.
I played it, targeting their commander and they chose to put their commander in the command zone. Do they get to play their commander first thing on their turn or does it have to go around a full circle though me as per the reflector mage? Basically are the two abilities on reflector mage independent clauses or do they rely on each other - ie the reflector mage has to 'see' the card in their hand to stop them from playing it?
Recently had this raised as a question in my playgroup. How does reflector mage work in EDH against a commander.
I played it, targeting their commander and they chose to put their commander in the command zone. Do they get to play their commander first thing on their turn or does it have to go around a full circle though me as per the reflector mage? Basically are the two abilities on reflector mage independent clauses or do they rely on each other - ie the reflector mage has to 'see' the card in their hand to stop them from playing it?
First, Reflector Mage has one ability.
113.2c An object may have multiple abilities. If the object is represented by a card, then aside from certain defined abilities that may be strung together on a single line (see rule 702, “Keyword Abilities”), each paragraph break in a card’s text marks a separate ability. If the object is not represented by a card, the effect that created it may have given it multiple abilities. An object may also be granted additional abilities by a spell or ability. If an object has multiple instances of the same ability, each instance functions independently. This may or may not produce more effects than a single instance; refer to the specific ability for more information.
Second, the creature that was the target and the subsequent card in the command zone (or the hand for the similar case where the target wasn't a commander) are two distinct objects (that probably have the same name).
400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are nine exceptions to this rule:
I'll use C1 to refer to the commander (or other creature) that was on the battlefield and C2 to refer to the card that ends up in a different zone. C1 was a creature. C2 is a creature card, but it is not a creature. Treat the second sentence as "C1's owner can't cast spells with the same name as C1 until your next turn." That sentence makes absolutely no reference to a player's hand or a card that may or may not currently be there.
Oh, and my comment that C1 and C2 probably have the same name? Suppose the commander is Scion of the Ur-Dragon and they've used its copy ability. C1's name is not Scion of the Ur-Dragon, but C2's name will be. They'll be forbidden to cast spells named C1; the name (or location) of C2 is irrelevant.
Oath of the Gatewatch Release Notes
Reflector Mage
* In several cases, the name of the creature that was returned won’t match the name of that card once it's back in its owner’s hand. For example, if the card was copying another creature, it will probably have a different name in its owner’s hand and can be cast again before your next turn. The same is true if a double-faced card with its back face up is returned to its owner’s hand this way.
(You might find this ruling in Gatherer or other references with a date of 1/22/2016.)
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
Reflector Mage's "rule" is configured to the card name(s) of the creature that was targeted. It isn't tracking any objects in players' hands, no.
The rule is, that player cannot cast a spell if its name is the same as [target creature's name], and the rule is in effect until your next turn. The commander definitely has that name, so it can't be cast.
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Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Reflector Mage's "rule" is configured to the card name(s) of the creature that was targeted. It isn't tracking any objects in players' hands, no.
The rule is, that player cannot cast a spell if its name is the same as [target creature's name], and the rule is in effect until your next turn. The commander definitely has that name, so it can't be cast.
Cool that's exactly what I thought, I think they were just trying to be weasely
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I played it, targeting their commander and they chose to put their commander in the command zone. Do they get to play their commander first thing on their turn or does it have to go around a full circle though me as per the reflector mage? Basically are the two abilities on reflector mage independent clauses or do they rely on each other - ie the reflector mage has to 'see' the card in their hand to stop them from playing it?
Second, the creature that was the target and the subsequent card in the command zone (or the hand for the similar case where the target wasn't a commander) are two distinct objects (that probably have the same name).
I'll use C1 to refer to the commander (or other creature) that was on the battlefield and C2 to refer to the card that ends up in a different zone. C1 was a creature. C2 is a creature card, but it is not a creature. Treat the second sentence as "C1's owner can't cast spells with the same name as C1 until your next turn." That sentence makes absolutely no reference to a player's hand or a card that may or may not currently be there.
Oh, and my comment that C1 and C2 probably have the same name? Suppose the commander is Scion of the Ur-Dragon and they've used its copy ability. C1's name is not Scion of the Ur-Dragon, but C2's name will be. They'll be forbidden to cast spells named C1; the name (or location) of C2 is irrelevant.
(You might find this ruling in Gatherer or other references with a date of 1/22/2016.)
The rule is, that player cannot cast a spell if its name is the same as [target creature's name], and the rule is in effect until your next turn. The commander definitely has that name, so it can't be cast.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Cool that's exactly what I thought, I think they were just trying to be weasely