If you mutate a permanent that is only a creature until end of turn (like a man-land for example) does the mutated card remain on that permanent after it changes back? Basically, is a mutate card treated like a +1/+1 counter for remaining on permanents that change type?
The exact rules for the mutate mechanic haven't been released yet.
According to the mechanics article for Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths, a mutating creature spell doesn't enter the battlefield; rather, it merely changes a permanent's characteristics when it resolves.A mutating creature spell doesn't enter the battlefield as a separate permanent; rather, it becomes part of the permanent it targets, changing that permanent's characteristics. But nothing in the mechanics articlecomprehensive rules suggests that these changes are active only while the permanent is otherwise a creature. See also this thread.
Based on what we know now, you can think of a mutating creature spell as a kind of "marker" on the permanent (but not really a counter) that notes what the permanent looks like.
EDIT (Apr. 28): Correctness edit in view of rules update.
My biggest question is about the difference between mutating on top of an animated manaland vs. mutating underneath one.
Reading the mechanics article, it seems obvious that mutating underneath an animated manland means it stops being a creature at the end of the turn, and you can animate it again later to mutate it more. But if you mutate on top of the animated manland, does it stay a creature permanently?
Considering we'll be back in Zendikar soon, where a new set of manlands will surely appear, this is an important question to answer. It may not be answerable until the CR is updated for Ikoria, though.
this is a weird question and while the full rules aren't out, we cannot be sure....
still, my best effort to figure it out would be.... for example.
you have a transformed Mutavault out, so it's a 2/2 with all creature types.
then you mutate a Huntmaster Liger underneath it.
it's now a 2/2 with all creature types until the end of turn, with that "whenever this mutates, give +1/+1 to everything for each time it mutates" ability.
at the end of the turn, it becomes a land again, is no longer a creature, but the mutated card remains with it and it because there's no state based effect to make it fall off, so it will still have the trigger if you transform it and mutate it again.
if instead of mutating underneath, you mutate it above the mutavault, the end result would still be the same in the same turn (as effects that set P/T to a proper level is applied on a later layer than the characteristic defining one) and until the end of turn, the card is a 2/2 with all creature types.
when the turn ends and this effect goes away, the result is a 3/4 white cat with it's own trigger, an ability to tap for C and the ability to become a 2/2 with all creature types until the end of the turn, it's no longer a land, ever.
it becomes weirder if you mutate a God like, for example Nylea, Keen-Eyed.
regardless of you putting it underneath or above it, it will still have that ability "As long as your devotion to green is less than five, Nylea isn’t a creature." so, you'll have to keep the loyalty to green high enough or it will not be a creature anymore.
and If the card in front is a creature and nothing else, it will become a permanent with NO CARD TYPE....
I'm not sure about how the game will handle that... lol.
Note: just realized you cannot mutate a Mutavault because it's a human... but the general idea remains.
Note 2: 110.4c If a permanent somehow loses all its permanent types, it remains on the battlefield. It’s still a permanent.
the "NO CARD TYPE" thing is not an issue.
the characteristics added by a mutating creature spell are copiable values (and thus belong in layer 1), or
the nature of mutating a permanent is a text change (putting it in layer 3)., or
the changes to the characteristics apply in their appropriate layers (e.g., the changes to card types and creature types apply in the type-changing layer, and the changes to abilities apply in the ability layer).
However, nothing in the mechanics article clarifies details such as this one.
EDIT: See comment 7.
EDIT (Apr. 11): Struck out in view of release notes.
the characteristics added by a mutating creature spell are copiable values (and thus belong in layer 1),
the nature of mutating a permanent is a text change (putting it in layer 3), or
the changes to the characteristics apply in their appropriate layers (e.g., the changes to card types and creature types apply in the type-changing layer, and the changes to abilities apply in the ability layer).
However, nothing in the mechanics article clarifies details such as this one.
yes.
I'm going to bet that only the card in front is giving the mutate card it's copiable characteristics or it would become a nightmare to keep track of this in paper magic.
I know we shouldn`t speculate on this section of the forum, but from the long history of this game, it's most likely safe to bet that mutate in on layer 3.
As was recently clarified, if a mutating creature spell (with no other card types but creature) merges with, and is put on top of, a permanent with an ability of the form "As long as ..., [this permanent] isn't a creature", such as Thassa, Deep-Dwelling, and that permanent stops being a creature due to that ability, the resulting permanent will have no more permanent types.
This rules out the possibility that the addition of abilities by mutating are ability-adding effects (layer 6), since under that possibility, an ability such as "As long as ..., [this permanent] isn't a creature" would not apply "in time" for the permanent to lose the creature card type (C.R. 613.1, 613.1d, 613.1f).This is because the characteristics added by a mutating creature spell are copiable values, so they apply in layer 1 or earlier, "before" type-changing effects (C.R. 613.1, 613.1a, 613.1d).
EDIT (Apr. 11, 2020): Correctness edit in view of release notes.
We already know that Mutate applies in layer 1, in timestamp order with clones. Everything on a mutated created, as the result of mutate anyway, is a copiable value.
So, if you mutate under an animated land, the entire pile stops being a creature when the animation effect wears off. If you put the animated land under another creature, the pile remains a creature. I am not sure if the abilities of Celestial Colonnade (to use a land we could do this with) are actually still applied to the creature. Eli didn't really answer that part of it in the question posed in the main question thread and I can't find a good answer otherwise. Because it is a layer 1 change, I would think it still does apply.
Hello there ! I'm new to this forum so I hope I'm doing things right.
I recently came across a situation closely related to this topic, and thought I might ask for your help, so here it is :
I have an Awakener Druid on the battlefield which I used to animate a basic Forest that is now a 4/5 treefolk.
Later I cast a Gemrazer for its mutate cost and place it on top of my Forest. I have two issues ...
1 - What happens while my Druid is still on the battlefield ?
2 - What happens if my Druid leaves the battlefield ?
In case 2, I would say that I still have a 4/4 Gemrazer that is a creature (and not a land). I hope I'm not wrong...
(Bonus question : if I'm right and my permanent is not a land : does it still produce mana ? That would be weird, but it's an ability after all...)
In case 1 however, I don't know if the ability of the Druid still holds while it's on the battlefield... Is my creature a 4/4 (we ignore the Druid ability, after all our mutated permanent is no longer a Forest if I'm not mistaking...) or a 4/5 (we still apply the druid's ability and therefore overwrite the base power and toughness of our mutated permanent) ?
So many questions ... I'm not sure if I'm clear enough, but I'm trying anyway ^^'
Can you help me ?
1. In this case, the "Forest" will generally have the characteristics of Gemrazer (including the name Gemrazer and Gemrazer's abilities), except it will also be a "4/5 green Treefolk creature" (and all its other types, including Beast, but no other colors), rather than 4/4, and have the "Forest"'s usual abilities (C.R. 721.2a, 702.139e). However, the permanent will no longer be a Forest, so it will no longer have "T: Add G" (C.R. 305.6), nor will it be a basic land anymore. Here is what happens to the "Forest" permanent in terms of the layer system.
Original object (C.R. 613.1): The permanent has its usual text.
Layer 1 (copy): The permanent has the characteristics of Gemrazer, including the name Gemrazer, the card type creature, the creature type Beast, and power and toughness 4/4, and Gemrazer's characteristics overwrite the permanent's usual characteristics except that the permanent retains its usual abilities. However, the permanent is no longer a Forest, so it no longer has "T: Add G", nor is it a basic land anymore.
Layer 2 (control): No relevant effects.
Layer 3 (text): No relevant effects.
Layer 4 (types): Due to Awakener Druid, the permanent is now a Treefolk creature in addition to its other types (note that the text "It's still a land" means only that the permanent's types are not overwritten, not that the permanent becomes a land if it wasn't already; see also this thread) (C.R. 205.1b).
Layer 5 (colors): Due to Awakener Druid, the permanent becomes green and no other colors.
Layer 6 (abilities): No relevant effects.
Layer 7 (power and toughness): Due to Awakener Druid, the permanent's base power and toughness become 4/5 (and no longer 4/4).
2. In this case, if Awakener Druid leaves the battlefield, the "Forest" will still have the characteristics of Gemrazer (including the name Gemrazer, Gemrazer's abilities, and power and toughness 4/4), except it will also have the "Forest"'s usual abilities (C.R. 721.2a, 702.139e), but will no longer necessarily have power and toughness 4/5 or be a Treefolk. Moreover, the permanent will still not be a Forest, so it will still not have "T: Add G", and neither is it still a basic land. Here is what happens to the "Forest" permanent in terms of the layer system.
Original object (C.R. 613.1): The permanent has its usual text.
Layer 1 (copy): The permanent has the characteristics of Gemrazer, including the name Gemrazer, the card type creature, the creature type Beast, and power and toughness 4/4, and Gemrazer's characteristics overwrite the permanent's usual characteristics except that the permanent retains its usual abilities. However, the permanent is no longer a Forest, so it no longer has "T: Add G", nor is it a basic land anymore.
Layers 2-7: No relevant effects. (Note that Awakener Druid is now no longer on the battlefield.)
Thus, to answer your "bonus question", in neither case given above will the permanent be a Forest anymore, so it will no longer have "T: Add G".
Note also that the effect of Awakener Druid continues "for as long as Awakener Druid remains on the battlefield", even if the targeted Forest stops being a Forest or a land (C.R. 611.2a).
Note, that if you mutate the Gemrazerunder the Forest, you will essentially just give it reach and trample and it retains its ability to produce G. If the Awakener Druid then leaves the battlefield, it reverts back to just being a Forest except it still has reach and trample and can benefit from those abilities again if it becomes animated again by any means (if the animating effect doesn't explicitly strip it of its abilities that is). And of course, mutating onto it again will trigger the Gemrazer ability again.
Wow, thanks a lot for these very detailed answers ! This makes sense, and by the way Rezzahan you totally guessed my next question, gigabrain !
So just to make sure, the target of the Awakener druid only needs to be legal when it resolves, and the continuous effect will apply even if the target isn't a Forest anymore ? It would make sense considering what you just explained to me, but I struggle finding a comprehensive rule to certify this.
So just to make sure, the target of the Awakener druid only needs to be legal when it resolves, and the continuous effect will apply even if the target isn't a Forest anymore ? It would make sense considering what you just explained to me, but I struggle finding a comprehensive rule to certify this.
Awakener Druid's ability checks whether the target is a Forest only when it's put onto the stack and when it resolves (before you carry out its instructions) (C.R. 608.2b, 608.2c, 603.3d, 601.2c), not at any other moment. Accordingly, when it resolves and its target is legal (C.R. 608.2b), the effect will begin and will continue "for as long as Awakener Druid remains on the battlefield", even if the targeted permanent stops being a Forest (C.R. 611.2a, 608.2c; see also C.R. 608.2). See also this thread and this thread.
The exact rules for the mutate mechanic haven't been released yet.
A mutating creature spell doesn't enter the battlefield as a separate permanent; rather, it becomes part of the permanent it targets, changing that permanent's characteristics. But nothing in theAccording to the mechanics article for Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths, a mutating creature spell doesn't enter the battlefield; rather, it merely changes a permanent's characteristics when it resolves.
mechanics articlecomprehensive rules suggests that these changes are active only while the permanent is otherwise a creature. See also this thread.Based on what we know now, you can think of a mutating creature spell as a kind of "marker" on the permanent (but not really a counter) that notes what the permanent looks like.EDIT (Apr. 28): Correctness edit in view of rules update.
Reading the mechanics article, it seems obvious that mutating underneath an animated manland means it stops being a creature at the end of the turn, and you can animate it again later to mutate it more. But if you mutate on top of the animated manland, does it stay a creature permanently?
Considering we'll be back in Zendikar soon, where a new set of manlands will surely appear, this is an important question to answer. It may not be answerable until the CR is updated for Ikoria, though.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
still, my best effort to figure it out would be.... for example.
you have a transformed Mutavault out, so it's a 2/2 with all creature types.
then you mutate a Huntmaster Liger underneath it.
it's now a 2/2 with all creature types until the end of turn, with that "whenever this mutates, give +1/+1 to everything for each time it mutates" ability.
at the end of the turn, it becomes a land again, is no longer a creature, but the mutated card remains with it and it because there's no state based effect to make it fall off, so it will still have the trigger if you transform it and mutate it again.
if instead of mutating underneath, you mutate it above the mutavault, the end result would still be the same in the same turn (as effects that set P/T to a proper level is applied on a later layer than the characteristic defining one) and until the end of turn, the card is a 2/2 with all creature types.
when the turn ends and this effect goes away, the result is a 3/4 white cat with it's own trigger, an ability to tap for C and the ability to become a 2/2 with all creature types until the end of the turn, it's no longer a land, ever.
it becomes weirder if you mutate a God like, for example Nylea, Keen-Eyed.
regardless of you putting it underneath or above it, it will still have that ability "As long as your devotion to green is less than five, Nylea isn’t a creature." so, you'll have to keep the loyalty to green high enough or it will not be a creature anymore.
and If the card in front is a creature and nothing else, it will become a permanent with NO CARD TYPE....
I'm not sure about how the game will handle that... lol.
Note: just realized you cannot mutate a Mutavault because it's a human... but the general idea remains.
Note 2: 110.4c If a permanent somehow loses all its permanent types, it remains on the battlefield. It’s still a permanent.
the "NO CARD TYPE" thing is not an issue.
Much of the answer will depend on whether—- the characteristics added by a mutating creature spell are copiable values (and thus belong in layer 1), or
- the nature of mutating a permanent is a text change (putting it in layer 3).
, orthe changes to the characteristics apply in their appropriate layers (e.g., the changes to card types and creature types apply in the type-changing layer, and the changes to abilities apply in the ability layer).However, nothing in the mechanics article clarifies details such as this one.
EDIT: See comment 7.
EDIT (Apr. 11): Struck out in view of release notes.
yes.
I'm going to bet that only the card in front is giving the mutate card it's copiable characteristics or it would become a nightmare to keep track of this in paper magic.
I know we shouldn`t speculate on this section of the forum, but from the long history of this game, it's most likely safe to bet that mutate in on layer 3.
This rules out the possibility that the addition of abilities by mutating are ability-adding effects (layer 6), since under that possibility, an ability such as "As long as ..., [this permanent] isn't a creature" would not apply "in time" for the permanent to lose the creature card type (C.R. 613.1, 613.1d, 613.1f).This is because the characteristics added by a mutating creature spell are copiable values, so they apply in layer 1 or earlier, "before" type-changing effects (C.R. 613.1, 613.1a, 613.1d).EDIT (Apr. 11, 2020): Correctness edit in view of release notes.
So, if you mutate under an animated land, the entire pile stops being a creature when the animation effect wears off. If you put the animated land under another creature, the pile remains a creature. I am not sure if the abilities of Celestial Colonnade (to use a land we could do this with) are actually still applied to the creature. Eli didn't really answer that part of it in the question posed in the main question thread and I can't find a good answer otherwise. Because it is a layer 1 change, I would think it still does apply.
I recently came across a situation closely related to this topic, and thought I might ask for your help, so here it is :
I have an Awakener Druid on the battlefield which I used to animate a basic Forest that is now a 4/5 treefolk.
Later I cast a Gemrazer for its mutate cost and place it on top of my Forest. I have two issues ...
1 - What happens while my Druid is still on the battlefield ?
2 - What happens if my Druid leaves the battlefield ?
In case 2, I would say that I still have a 4/4 Gemrazer that is a creature (and not a land). I hope I'm not wrong...
(Bonus question : if I'm right and my permanent is not a land : does it still produce mana ? That would be weird, but it's an ability after all...)
In case 1 however, I don't know if the ability of the Druid still holds while it's on the battlefield... Is my creature a 4/4 (we ignore the Druid ability, after all our mutated permanent is no longer a Forest if I'm not mistaking...) or a 4/5 (we still apply the druid's ability and therefore overwrite the base power and toughness of our mutated permanent) ?
So many questions ... I'm not sure if I'm clear enough, but I'm trying anyway ^^'
Can you help me ?
(and merry Christmas to all!)
2. In this case, if Awakener Druid leaves the battlefield, the "Forest" will still have the characteristics of Gemrazer (including the name Gemrazer, Gemrazer's abilities, and power and toughness 4/4), except it will also have the "Forest"'s usual abilities (C.R. 721.2a, 702.139e), but will no longer necessarily have power and toughness 4/5 or be a Treefolk. Moreover, the permanent will still not be a Forest, so it will still not have "T: Add G", and neither is it still a basic land. Here is what happens to the "Forest" permanent in terms of the layer system.
Thus, to answer your "bonus question", in neither case given above will the permanent be a Forest anymore, so it will no longer have "T: Add G".
Note also that the effect of Awakener Druid continues "for as long as Awakener Druid remains on the battlefield", even if the targeted Forest stops being a Forest or a land (C.R. 611.2a).
EDIT (Dec. 29): Edited.
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So just to make sure, the target of the Awakener druid only needs to be legal when it resolves, and the continuous effect will apply even if the target isn't a Forest anymore ? It would make sense considering what you just explained to me, but I struggle finding a comprehensive rule to certify this.