Hello!
SO I have these 2 cards Dominus of Fealtyand Defense of the Heart(From Urza's Legacy Block)
So me and my friend got into a heated argument about the subject on how they resolve each other when Dominus of Fealtytargets Defense of the Heart. We agree on multiple points but the issue comes with rule 503.1a ''Any abilities that triggered during the untap step and any abilities that triggered at the beginning of the upkeep are put onto the stack before the active player gets priority; the order in which they triggered doesn’t matter. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”)''and that HE says you can Sacrifice Defense of the Heart if Dominus of Fealty takes control of it and triggers its effect. But I think that you cannot trigger Defense of the Heartas it wasn't in his control during the beginning of his upkeep.
I mean, that Dominus of Feraltys effect goes on the stack at the beginning of upkeep, he targets defense of the heartwith it and so far so good. BUT THEN, I think that Defense of the Heartisn't on the stack as it wasn't on his control during the beginning of his upkeep (in my opinion) and he only gains the control of the card once the effect from Dominus resolves.
What he says: Dominus of Fealtytargets the Defense of the Heart and he immediately gains control of it (before the stack resolves) and thus it would still be his at the beginning of upkeep and he can sacrifice it.
what is the ruling in this case?
DO YOU GET CONTROL OF A CARD WITH DOMINUS OF FEALTYIN A MANNER THAT ALLOWS YOU TO TRIGGER THE TARGETED CARDS ''AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR UPKEEP'' TRIGGER. SO IS THE CARD IN YOUR CONTROL DURING ''AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR UPKEEP'' OR JUST ''DURING YOUR UPKEEP''
Defense of the Heart's ability will trigger based on who controlled Defense of the Heart at the beginning of that player's upkeep (C.R. 109.5). That ability will check if "an opponent [of that player] controls three or more creatures", and only if that condition is met will the ability trigger (C.R. 603.4). (Nothing a player does during that upkeep, including gaining control of a permanent thanks to Dominus of Fealty, will change whether that ability will trigger. See also this thread.)
If that ability does trigger, nothing that happens to Defense of the Heart (including a change of controller, whether due to Dominus of Fealty's triggered ability or otherwise) will affect that ability (C.R. 113.7a). When that ability resolves, if an opponent of that ability's controller still controls three or more creatures, the ability's controller follows that ability's instructions as much as they can (C.R. 608.2a, 608.2c, 101.3; see also C.R. 609.3), so that even if they no longer control Defense of the Heart when that ability resolves, they still search their library for two creature cards (and do the rest of the ability as much as possible) (C.R. 113.7a). See also this thread.
EDIT: Corrected rule citation after comment 7 was posted.
You can not use Dominus to get an upkeep trigger of another permanent. By the time you resolve its ability the beggining of the upkeep has long since past.
What he says: Dominus of Fealtytargets the Defense of the Heart and he immediately gains control of it (before the stack resolves) and thus it would still be his at the beginning of upkeep and he can sacrifice it.
what is the ruling in this case?
DO YOU GET CONTROL OF A CARD WITH DOMINUS OF FEALTYIN A MANNER THAT ALLOWS YOU TO TRIGGER THE TARGETED CARDS ''AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR UPKEEP'' TRIGGER. SO IS THE CARD IN YOUR CONTROL DURING ''AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR UPKEEP'' OR JUST ''DURING YOUR UPKEEP''
The "beginning of your upkeep" is just what it says it is. The beginning of the upkeep. Once you are in your upkeep, you have passed the beginning. All things that trigger at the beginning of your upkeep trigger simultaneously. If you control all the triggers, you order how they go on the stack. They resolve in the order you have chosen, with the top item resolving first. If your opponent has any triggers which will trigger at your upkeep (e.g. a card that triggers each upkeep, like Tendershoot Dryad which triggers on each upkeep), then your opponent will put their triggers on top of your triggers, and your opponents will resolve before yours (in the order they have chosen for their triggers, top item resolving first).
Since Dominus of Fealty triggers at the beginning of your upkeep, the resolution of its trigger necessarily occurs after the beginning of your upkeep has passed. Therefore, any permanent you gain control over will not trigger once you gain possession of it if its trigger is at the beginning of your upkeep... because as stated, that has passed. So no, you cannot gain control of Defense of the Heart and then sac it to its trigger, because its trigger did not happen.
To counter what your friend said, it is impossible for him to gain control of Defense of the Heart immediately, without anything from the stack resolving. The very fact of gaining control of a permanent via Dominus of Fealty is the resolution of its trigger on the stack.
Thanks for the reply peteroupc I can't find C.R. 608.4,
I think that was a typo for 603.4.
603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause” rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
Example: Felidar Sovereign reads, “At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have 40 or more life, you win the game.” Its controller’s life total is checked as that player’s upkeep begins. If that player has 39 or less life, the ability doesn’t trigger at all. If that player has 40 or more life, the ability triggers and goes on the stack. As the ability resolves, that player’s life total is checked again. If that player has 39 or less life at this time, the ability is removed from the stack and has no effect. If that player has 40 or more life at this time, the ability resolves and that player wins the game.
Here are some other relevant rules that don't seem to have been cited yet:
117.3. Which player has priority is determined by the following rules:
117.3a The active player receives priority at the beginning of most steps and phases, after any turn-based actions (such as drawing a card during the draw step; see rule 703) have been dealt with and abilities that trigger at the beginning of that phase or step have been put on the stack. No player receives priority during the untap step. Players usually don’t get priority during the cleanup step (see rule 514.3).
500.6. When a phase or step begins, any abilities that trigger “at the beginning of” that phase or step trigger. They are put on the stack the next time a player would receive priority. (See rule 117, “Timing and Priority.”)
603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn’t do anything at this point.
Especially note that last one. You don't trigger any ability. Neither does your opponent. Those abilities trigger automatically at the indicated time -- or not (as in this case).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
SO I have these 2 cards Dominus of Fealtyand Defense of the Heart(From Urza's Legacy Block)
So me and my friend got into a heated argument about the subject on how they resolve each other when Dominus of Fealtytargets Defense of the Heart. We agree on multiple points but the issue comes with rule 503.1a ''Any abilities that triggered during the untap step and any abilities that triggered at the beginning of the upkeep are put onto the stack before the active player gets priority; the order in which they triggered doesn’t matter. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”)''and that HE says you can Sacrifice Defense of the Heart if Dominus of Fealty takes control of it and triggers its effect. But I think that you cannot trigger Defense of the Heartas it wasn't in his control during the beginning of his upkeep.
I mean, that Dominus of Feraltys effect goes on the stack at the beginning of upkeep, he targets defense of the heartwith it and so far so good. BUT THEN, I think that Defense of the Heartisn't on the stack as it wasn't on his control during the beginning of his upkeep (in my opinion) and he only gains the control of the card once the effect from Dominus resolves.
What he says: Dominus of Fealtytargets the Defense of the Heart and he immediately gains control of it (before the stack resolves) and thus it would still be his at the beginning of upkeep and he can sacrifice it.
what is the ruling in this case?
DO YOU GET CONTROL OF A CARD WITH DOMINUS OF FEALTYIN A MANNER THAT ALLOWS YOU TO TRIGGER THE TARGETED CARDS ''AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR UPKEEP'' TRIGGER. SO IS THE CARD IN YOUR CONTROL DURING ''AT THE BEGINNING OF YOUR UPKEEP'' OR JUST ''DURING YOUR UPKEEP''
If that ability does trigger, nothing that happens to Defense of the Heart (including a change of controller, whether due to Dominus of Fealty's triggered ability or otherwise) will affect that ability (C.R. 113.7a). When that ability resolves, if an opponent of that ability's controller still controls three or more creatures, the ability's controller follows that ability's instructions as much as they can (C.R. 608.2a, 608.2c, 101.3; see also C.R. 609.3), so that even if they no longer control Defense of the Heart when that ability resolves, they still search their library for two creature cards (and do the rest of the ability as much as possible) (C.R. 113.7a). See also this thread.
EDIT: Corrected rule citation after comment 7 was posted.
The "beginning of your upkeep" is just what it says it is. The beginning of the upkeep. Once you are in your upkeep, you have passed the beginning. All things that trigger at the beginning of your upkeep trigger simultaneously. If you control all the triggers, you order how they go on the stack. They resolve in the order you have chosen, with the top item resolving first. If your opponent has any triggers which will trigger at your upkeep (e.g. a card that triggers each upkeep, like Tendershoot Dryad which triggers on each upkeep), then your opponent will put their triggers on top of your triggers, and your opponents will resolve before yours (in the order they have chosen for their triggers, top item resolving first).
Since Dominus of Fealty triggers at the beginning of your upkeep, the resolution of its trigger necessarily occurs after the beginning of your upkeep has passed. Therefore, any permanent you gain control over will not trigger once you gain possession of it if its trigger is at the beginning of your upkeep... because as stated, that has passed. So no, you cannot gain control of Defense of the Heart and then sac it to its trigger, because its trigger did not happen.
To counter what your friend said, it is impossible for him to gain control of Defense of the Heart immediately, without anything from the stack resolving. The very fact of gaining control of a permanent via Dominus of Fealty is the resolution of its trigger on the stack.
Here are some other relevant rules that don't seem to have been cited yet:
Especially note that last one. You don't trigger any ability. Neither does your opponent. Those abilities trigger automatically at the indicated time -- or not (as in this case).