I normally am really good on rules interactions, but this one stumped me and everyone else at the table last night. I was about to cast Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, my friends new this because I got lucky when sacrificing Haunted Fengraf and Elesh was the random card return to my hand. One of my friends had Vesuvan Shapeshifter face down on their side of the table, which also was known info.
What we couldn’t figure out is if he could turn the shapeshifter face up to copy Elesh Norn before Norn’s -2/-2 killed it and most of his morph creatures. My gut tells me he could not do that, because Norn’s ability is a static ability and therefore is a state based action, but turning morph creatures face up doesn’t use the stack and the shapeshifter’s ability isn’t a trigger, it just turns face up as whatever it’s copying.
So what happens here? Does my opponent get to copy Norn or does the face down shapeshifter die before it can turn face up (it was a 2/2 with no toughness pumping static effects on his side of the board)?
No, he cannot. While turning a permanent face up is a special action that doesn't use the stack, to initiate that action you still have to have priority. So he can turn the Shapeshifter face up before Elesh Norn resolves, but cannot choose Elesh to copy since its not on the battlefield yet. If he waits until after Elesh Norn resolves, the -2/-2 continuous effect kicks in immediately, then state based actions clean the board of any creature with toughness 0 or less, as well as any creature with lethal damage marked when its toughness is reduced. Only after that will the active player gain priority. The Shapeshifter will be dead by then.
What we couldn’t figure out is if he could turn the shapeshifter face up to copy Elesh Norn before Norn’s -2/-2 killed it and most of his morph creatures. My gut tells me he could not do that, because Norn’s ability is a static ability and therefore is a state based action, but turning morph creatures face up doesn’t use the stack and the shapeshifter’s ability isn’t a trigger, it just turns face up as whatever it’s copying.
So what happens here? Does my opponent get to copy Norn or does the face down shapeshifter die before it can turn face up (it was a 2/2 with no toughness pumping static effects on his side of the board)?
Former Rules Advisor
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