The title pretty much explains it, but say I'm attacking with:
1/1
1/1
3/3 creature that gives all other creatures +1/+1
If my opponent declares a blocker that kills the 3/3 creature first, do the enhanced 2/2 creatures then only have 1/1 for the battle? Or do they retain the 2/2 until the end of the turn? My inclination is that the 2/2 is retained since all of the attacking/blocking is happening at once, even though my opponent is declaring the block on my 3/3 first.
The title pretty much explains it, but say I'm attacking with:
1/1
1/1
3/3 creature that gives all other creatures +1/+1
If my opponent declares a blocker that kills the 3/3 creature first,
Does the blocker have first strike or double strike?
If it does, the damage it deals happens (and results in creature destruction) before any other creatures can even assign combat damage.
If it doesn't, the combat damage is all simultaneous and the "first" you describe is wrong.
510.2. Second, all combat damage that’s been assigned is dealt simultaneously. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack. No player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time combat damage is assigned and the time it’s dealt.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
The title pretty much explains it, but say I'm attacking with:
1/1
1/1
3/3 creature that gives all other creatures +1/+1
If my opponent declares a blocker that kills the 3/3 creature first, do the enhanced 2/2 creatures then only have 1/1 for the battle? Or do they retain the 2/2 until the end of the turn? My inclination is that the 2/2 is retained since all of the attacking/blocking is happening at once, even though my opponent is declaring the block on my 3/3 first.
The 2/2s remain 2/2 as long as the 3/3 is alive. They return down to 1/1 as soon as the 3/3 dies.
But why would the 3/3 die first? is the real question.
First, you attack. All attacks are declared simultaneously.
Then, they block. All block are simultaneous.
Then, and only then, damage happens. All damage is simultaneous.
There is no 'first kill' in combat, unless some creature has First Strike or Double Strike.
Your 2/2s should hit the ennemy with a power of 2.
Then the 3/3 dies.
Then any surviving 2/2 returns down to 1/1, which will kill it if it received any damage.
Maybe you're being confused by rule 509.2, which applies to a different situation than the one you described: that rule won't make the 3/3 get killed first.
509.2. Second, for each attacking creature that’s become blocked, the active player announces that creature’s damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures blocking it in an order of that player’s choice. (...)
Does the blocker have first strike or double strike?
If it does, the damage it deals happens (and results in creature destruction) before any other creatures can even assign combat damage.
Doesn't first strike mean that of the two creatures fighting each other, the one with first strike deals damage first? It doesn't mean that of all creatures in a battle, it strikes its opponent first, does it?
Does the blocker have first strike or double strike?
If it does, the damage it deals happens (and results in creature destruction) before any other creatures can even assign combat damage.
Doesn't first strike mean that of the two creatures fighting each other, the one with first strike deals damage first? It doesn't mean that of all creatures in a battle, it strikes its opponent first, does it?
It actually does mean that. In battle if any creature has first strike or double strike then any creature with first / double strike will deal damage and any creature with lethal damage marked will die and players can cast intstants. After that all creatures without firstrike still alive will deal damage.
Does the blocker have first strike or double strike?
If it does, the damage it deals happens (and results in creature destruction) before any other creatures can even assign combat damage.
Doesn't first strike mean that of the two creatures fighting each other, the one with first strike deals damage first? It doesn't mean that of all creatures in a battle, it strikes its opponent first, does it?
Genini2 may have misunderstood your question. No, neither First Strike nor Double Strike get to be 'shared' amongst friendly creatures. These abilities work on an individual basis.
All creatures with FS/DS get to hit first, simultaneously.
Then, the survivors get to hit back, simultaneously, along with surviving Double Strike creatures, who get to hit a second time.
You still haven't answered Argus_Panoptes' question: Does the creature blocking your 3/3 have first strike or double strike?
Except for creatures with First Strike and Double Strike, all combat damage is dealt at once, simultaneously. Blocking creatures and blocked creatures and unblocked creatures, all their damage is dealt at the same time.
The way you worded your question, you appear to believe the creature blocking the 3/3 deals damage before the other creatures do. Unless this blocker has First or Double Strike (and the other creatures don't), this is not the case.
Assuming no creature has First/Double Strike, the 3/3 will deal damage to the blocker and the blocker will deal damage to the 3/3 and the other creatures will deal their damage to whoever, all at once. At this point the other attackers are still 2/2, so each deals 2 damage, not 1. The 3/3 dies only after all this damage is dealt.
Declare blockers step begins. Opponent declares Kalonian Tusker (3/3) as a blocker for Benalish Marshal.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
Declare blockers step ends.
Combat damage step begins. Benalish Marshal assigns 3 damage to Kalonian Tusker. Cathedral Sanctifier assigns 2 damage to opponent. Devout Monk assigns 2 damage to opponent. Kalonian Tusker assigns 3 damage to Benalish Marshal.
Combat damage is dealt as assigned. The total 4 damage that Cathedral Sanctifier and Devout Monk deal to the opponent reduce opponent's life total by 4.
You would get priority, but there are state-based actions to perform. Benalish Marshal and Kalonian Tusker have lethal damage and are destroyed. Cathedral Sanctifier and Devout Monk now have power/toughness of 1/1 (not that it matters anymore).
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
Combat damage step ends.
End of combat step begins.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
End of combat step ends. Combat phase ends.
Second, with first strike:
Your combat phase begins. Your beginning of combat step begins.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
Beginning of combat step ends.
Declare attackers step begins. You declare Benalish Marshal (3/3), Eager Cadet (currently 2/2), and Serra Zealot (currently 2/2 with first strike) as attackers and tap them.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
Declare attackers step ends.
Declare blockers step begins. Opponent declares Battle Hurda (3/3 with first strike) as a blocker for Benalish Marshal.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
Declare blockers step ends.
Combat damage step begins. At least one combat participant has first strike or double strike, so only creatures with one of those get to assign/deal combat damage. Serra Zealot assigns 2 damage to opponent. Battle Hurda assigns 3 damage to Benalish Marshal.
Combat damage is dealt as assigned. The 2 damage that Serra Zealot deals to the opponent reduces opponent's life total by 2.
You would get priority, but there is a state-based action to perform. Benalish Marshal has lethal damage and is destroyed. Eager Cadet and Serra Zealot now have power/toughness of 1/1.
You get priority and pass.
Opponent gets priority and passes.
Combat damage step ends.
Second combat damage step begins. The remaining creatures get to assign/deal combat damage. Eager Cadet assigns 1 damage to opponent.
Combat damage is dealt as assigned. The 1 damage that Eager Cadet deals to the opponent reduces opponent's life total by 1.
Im one of that player's opponent here (EDIT: Unless that person used this thread as an exemple? I was refered to this thread by my opponent though)... One of the things my opponent isnt saying here is that Goblin Trashmaster was the 3/3 creature and I blocked it with an indestructible creature. My opponent also had Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician on the field, which says:
"Whenever another Goblin you control becomes blocked, sacrifice it. If you do, it deals 4 damage to each creature blocking it."
So technically, the attacking Goblin Trashmaster got sacrificed automatically. The question should be: Does the +1/+1 boost from Trashmaster stays on my opponent other creatures if Trashmaster got sacrificed before damage calcultation or if it was sacrificed during the damage calculation stage of the fight?
Im one of that player's opponent here (EDIT: Unless that person used this thread as an exemple? I was refered to this thread by my opponent though)... One of the things my opponent isnt saying here is that Goblin Trashmaster was the 3/3 creature and I blocked it with an indestructible creature. My opponent also had Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician on the field, which says:
"Whenever another Goblin you control becomes blocked, sacrifice it. If you do, it deals 4 damage to each creature blocking it."
So technically, the attacking Goblin Trashmaster got sacrificed automatically. The question should be: Does the +1/+1 boost from Trashmaster stays on my opponent other creatures if Trashmaster got sacrificed before damage calcultation or if it was sacrificed during the damage calculation stage of the fight?
As soon as Goblin Trashmaster leaves the battlefield, it will no longer give +1/+1 to any creatures anymore, since it's no longer on the battlefield (C.R. 604.1, 613.1b, 113.6).
---------------
If a triggered ability (such as Ib Halfheart's first ability) triggers during a step or phase (e.g., during the declare blockers step), it will get to resolve during that same step or phase (C.R. 603.3, 117.4).
In particular, in the case of Ib Halfheart's first ability, the creature it refers to will be sacrificed when the ability resolves, during the declare blockers step and before combat damage is assigned (C.R. 506.1).
1/1
1/1
3/3 creature that gives all other creatures +1/+1
If my opponent declares a blocker that kills the 3/3 creature first, do the enhanced 2/2 creatures then only have 1/1 for the battle? Or do they retain the 2/2 until the end of the turn? My inclination is that the 2/2 is retained since all of the attacking/blocking is happening at once, even though my opponent is declaring the block on my 3/3 first.
Does the blocker have first strike or double strike?
If it does, the damage it deals happens (and results in creature destruction) before any other creatures can even assign combat damage.
If it doesn't, the combat damage is all simultaneous and the "first" you describe is wrong.
But why would the 3/3 die first? is the real question.
First, you attack. All attacks are declared simultaneously.
Then, they block. All block are simultaneous.
Then, and only then, damage happens. All damage is simultaneous.
There is no 'first kill' in combat, unless some creature has First Strike or Double Strike.
Your 2/2s should hit the ennemy with a power of 2.
Then the 3/3 dies.
Then any surviving 2/2 returns down to 1/1, which will kill it if it received any damage.
Maybe you're being confused by rule 509.2, which applies to a different situation than the one you described: that rule won't make the 3/3 get killed first.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
Doesn't first strike mean that of the two creatures fighting each other, the one with first strike deals damage first? It doesn't mean that of all creatures in a battle, it strikes its opponent first, does it?
It actually does mean that. In battle if any creature has first strike or double strike then any creature with first / double strike will deal damage and any creature with lethal damage marked will die and players can cast intstants. After that all creatures without firstrike still alive will deal damage.
All creatures with FS/DS get to hit first, simultaneously.
Then, the survivors get to hit back, simultaneously, along with surviving Double Strike creatures, who get to hit a second time.
You still haven't answered Argus_Panoptes' question: Does the creature blocking your 3/3 have first strike or double strike?
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
The way you worded your question, you appear to believe the creature blocking the 3/3 deals damage before the other creatures do. Unless this blocker has First or Double Strike (and the other creatures don't), this is not the case.
Assuming no creature has First/Double Strike, the 3/3 will deal damage to the blocker and the blocker will deal damage to the 3/3 and the other creatures will deal their damage to whoever, all at once. At this point the other attackers are still 2/2, so each deals 2 damage, not 1. The 3/3 dies only after all this damage is dealt.
First, without first strike:
Second, with first strike:
"Whenever another Goblin you control becomes blocked, sacrifice it. If you do, it deals 4 damage to each creature blocking it."
So technically, the attacking Goblin Trashmaster got sacrificed automatically. The question should be: Does the +1/+1 boost from Trashmaster stays on my opponent other creatures if Trashmaster got sacrificed before damage calcultation or if it was sacrificed during the damage calculation stage of the fight?
---------------
If a triggered ability (such as Ib Halfheart's first ability) triggers during a step or phase (e.g., during the declare blockers step), it will get to resolve during that same step or phase (C.R. 603.3, 117.4).
In particular, in the case of Ib Halfheart's first ability, the creature it refers to will be sacrificed when the ability resolves, during the declare blockers step and before combat damage is assigned (C.R. 506.1).
See also:
- https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/10adh3w/enrage_and_combat_phase/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/105m5mj/question_about_the_bolster_ability/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/y2u1xl/when_i_attack_with_elite_scale_guard_do_i_choose/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/vk16j8/does_an_attacks_ability_trigger_before_damage_is/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/zjgtq3/first_strike_and_lifelink_with_the_archimandrite/