Let's say I have a Starfield of Nyx on the battlefield with at least five other enchantments. The Starfield turn all other non-aura enchantements into X/X, where X = their mana costs.
Now I am casting a Dance of the Manse with X>6, so the enchantments I bring back are 4/4 creatures in addition of being enchantments.
My questions is, are these "resurrected" enchantments 4/4 due to Dance or X/X because of Starfield?
And how does it work the other way round: bringing back 6 enchantments into 4/4, and next turn playing a Starfield of Nyx?
Thanks for your help!
Both cards set base power/toughness, so the effects are applied in time stamp order. The one created later will overwrite the other.
Note, that the timestamp for the Starfield's effect is the same as the timestamp for the Starfield itself. So even if the condition is only met later (like after the Dance has brought back some enchantments), its timestamp is still the earlier one.
My questions is, are these "resurrected" enchantments 4/4 due to Dance or X/X because of Starfield?
The non-Aura enchantments will be 4/4 creatures, no matter how many enchantments you control; the effect from Dance of the Manse began after Starfield of Nyx entered the battlefield, so it has a later timestamp and applies second (C.R. 613.6, 613.6a-c, 613.7).
And how does it work the other way round: bringing back 6 enchantments into 4/4, and next turn playing a Starfield of Nyx?
In this case, the non-Aura enchantments brought to the battlefield with Dance of the Manse will each have base power and toughness—
each equal to its converted mana cost "[a]s long as you control five or more enchantments", or
What if the Starfield was returned by the Dance, would the timestamp be before or after?
Dance returns them all to the field and then makes them 4/4s so its timestamp will be after the Starfields if you return it.
That isn't true. They enter as 4/4s which means they are never on the field as non-creatures. Because they enter "as" creatures, they must be creatures prior to being on the battlefield. This seems to suggest that Starfield would have the later timestamp. At best, the timestamps are applied at the same time (which means AP gets to choose their timestamp order) but I am not sure this is correct.
From Gatherer:
If X is 6 or more, the artifacts and/or enchantments enter the battlefield as 4/4 creatures. They don’t enter as noncreature permanents and then become creatures. [10/4/2019]
That isn't true. They enter as 4/4s which means they are never on the field as non-creatures. Because they enter "as" creatures, they must be creatures prior to being on the battlefield. This seems to suggest that Starfield would have the later timestamp. At best, the timestamps are applied at the same time (which means AP gets to choose their timestamp order) but I am not sure this is correct.
From Gatherer:
If X is 6 or more, the artifacts and/or enchantments enter the battlefield as 4/4 creatures. They don’t enter as noncreature permanents and then become creatures. [10/4/2019]
If X is 6 or more, the effect of Dance of the Manse "[r]eturn(s the targeted) artifact and/or non-Aura enchantment cards" and provides that the permanents that enter this way "are 4/4 creatures in addition to their other types", so that that effect begins simultaneously with those permanents entering the battlefield this way (C.R. 611.2e). Because of this, assuming two Starfield of Nyx cards were returned to the battlefield this way, that effect and that of each Starfield of Nyx would get a timestamp at the same time, so that as a result, the active player (not necessarily the controller of Dance of the Manse or the permanents brought to the battlefield this way) determines their relative timestamp order for the purposes of continuous effects (C.R. 613.6, 613.6a-c, 613.6j).
EDIT: Correctness edit after comment 11 was posted.
EDIT (Jan. 1): Further edited.
I'm fine with that explanation. The way I was thinking of might have been just thinking too deep in the weeds for the situation at hand and the explanation above makes sense.
I'm fine with that explanation. The way I was thinking of might have been just thinking too deep in the weeds for the situation at hand and the explanation above makes sense.
It makes sense from a logical point of view, but it is not supported by the rules.
Having the active player choose timestamp orders (613.6j) only applies to objects, while Danse creates an effect (613.6b), which is not an object.
I'm fine with that explanation. The way I was thinking of might have been just thinking too deep in the weeds for the situation at hand and the explanation above makes sense.
It makes sense from a logical point of view, but it is not supported by the rules.
Having the active player choose timestamp orders (613.6j) only applies to objects, while Danse creates an effect (613.6b), which is not an object.
C.R. 613.6 and its subrules speak of objects and/or effects receiving a timestamp. If C.R. 613.6j cannot be understood to mean "two or more objects and/or effects" receiving a timestamp (rather than "two or more objects" receiving a timestamp), then that is a gap in the rules, since it becomes undefined what the relative timestamp order of an object and an effect is if they both receive a timestamp simultaneously, and it likewise becomes undefined who determines their relative timestamp order for the purposes of continuous effects. I have notified the rules manager of this.
If C.R. 613.6j cannot be understood to mean "two or more objects and/or effects" receiving a timestamp (rather than "two or more objects" receiving a timestamp), then that is a gap in the rules
Let's say I have a Starfield of Nyx on the battlefield with at least five other enchantments. The Starfield turn all other non-aura enchantements into X/X, where X = their mana costs.
Now I am casting a Dance of the Manse with X>6, so the enchantments I bring back are 4/4 creatures in addition of being enchantments.
My questions is, are these "resurrected" enchantments 4/4 due to Dance or X/X because of Starfield?
And how does it work the other way round: bringing back 6 enchantments into 4/4, and next turn playing a Starfield of Nyx?
Thanks for your help!
Note, that the timestamp for the Starfield's effect is the same as the timestamp for the Starfield itself. So even if the condition is only met later (like after the Dance has brought back some enchantments), its timestamp is still the earlier one.
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The non-Aura enchantments will be 4/4 creatures, no matter how many enchantments you control; the effect from Dance of the Manse began after Starfield of Nyx entered the battlefield, so it has a later timestamp and applies second (C.R. 613.6, 613.6a-c, 613.7).
In this case, the non-Aura enchantments brought to the battlefield with Dance of the Manse will each have base power and toughness—
Dance returns them all to the field and then makes them 4/4s so its timestamp will be after the Starfields if you return it.
From Gatherer:
, so that as a result, the active player (not necessarily the controller of Dance of the Manse or the permanents brought to the battlefield this way) determines their relative timestamp order for the purposes of continuous effects (C.R. 613.6, 613.6a-c, 613.6j).EDIT: Correctness edit after comment 11 was posted.
EDIT (Jan. 1): Further edited.
Having the active player choose timestamp orders (613.6j) only applies to objects, while Danse creates an effect (613.6b), which is not an object.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules