No on Haakon yes on the general question. If you are given permission to cast a card with adventure from an unusual place you can cast the adventure portion. The reason Haakon doesn't work is that he only let's you play knights and the Adventures aren't knights.
Adventures only exist while on hand, and they have no creature type, so no.
This is wrong. From Maro, the important part bolded, I would quote the actual rule guy but I couldn't find anything directly from him.
cursedereaper asked: Okay Mark. You just said creatures with Adventure allow you to cast them from your hand. But what if a card allows me to cast cards from the library, the graveyard etc. The article never mentioned that Adventures are only allowed to be cast from hand but that anywhere except the stack they are seen as creatures.
You can only cast the Adventure (aka the instant/sorcery) from your hand.
EDIT: Eli just texted me. You can cast the adventure from any zone if a card lets you cast the card from that zone.
No, you cannot cast adventures with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge. However, this is because of the limitation of Haakon's ability. Other cards which would allow you to cast spells from the graveyard could potentially cast adventures. (Note that Karador, Ghost Chieftain and Muldrotha, the Gravetide will also fail.)
Casting a spell is a fairly complex process, outlined by rules 601.2. In short, it involves the process of putting a card on the stack, choosing targets, paying costs, and once all steps are complete, the spell is cast.
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge could allow you to begin casting some adventures which are on creatures that have the Knight type, such as Murderous Rider. This is because Haakon lets you cast the Knight card, allowing you to place it on the stack (601.2a).
When the spell is placed on the stack, you then have to make a choice, of whether you are casting it as a Creature, or as an Adventure (likely to be included in 601.2b). At this point, you may choose to cast the card as an adventure.
However, once the process arrives at 601.2e, where the game checks for legality, we have a problem. Since you have chosen to cast the card as an Adventure, it only has the characteristics of the Adventure - notably, it is no longer a creature, and most problematically - not a Knight anymore. Haakon only lets you cast Knights from the graveyard, and now that this card is no longer a Knight card - we have a problem. This is an illegal move, and the game will rewind to the point right before you announced an attempt to cast this spell.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the spell (rules 601.2a–d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f–h). To cast a spell, a player follows the steps listed below, in order. A player must be legally allowed to cast the spell to begin this process (see rule 601.3). If a player is unable to comply with the requirements of a step listed below while performing that step, the casting of the spell is illegal ; the game returns to the moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (see rule 721, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
601.2a To propose the casting of a spell, a player first moves that card (or that copy of a card) from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
601.2b If the spell is modal, the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.46), they reveal those cards in their hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it’s being cast such as buyback or kicker costs (see rules 118.8 and 118.9), the player announces their intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2f). A player can’t apply two alternative methods of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it’s being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If the value of that variable is defined in the text of the spell by a choice that player would make later in the announcement or resolution of the spell, that player makes that choice at this time instead of that later time. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost they intend to pay. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player announces whether they intend to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player’s options when making these choices.
{... (rules for selecting targets) ...}
601.2e The game checks to see if the proposed spell can legally be cast. If the proposed spell is illegal, the game returns to the moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (see rule 721, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
Note: Rules updates are typically included when a new set is released. As such, all pre-release cards and interactions can only be evaluated under how the current rules operate.
Adventures only exist while on hand, and they have no creature type, so no.
Base on what I've heard, creature CARDS with Adventure are creatures in every zone except on stack (when you chose it to be Adventure), which is why I wonder if Haakon could cast a knight-adventure from graveyard.
Though, base on Bobthefunny's explanation, Adventure spells cannot resolve due to the game realizing the spell isn't a Knight spell, therefore deem it impossible to cast.
Here's a relevant question: If I have both Haakon and Kess, Dissident Mage on battlefield, one lets me cast knight spell the other allows me to cast an instant/sorcery during my turn, would it work?
Here's a relevant question: If I have both Haakon and Kess, Dissident Mage on battlefield, one lets me cast knight spell the other allows me to cast an instant/sorcery during my turn, would it work?
You don't even need Haakon. Kess lets you cast an Instant or Sorcery so you can cast the Adventure and when the game checks to make sure it is legal, it sees an Instant or Sorcery is being cast and that Kess allows it.
In general, for the purposes of Haakon's second ability, Muldrotha's second ability, Karador's second ability, and any other ability with an effect that lets a player play a "card" cast a spell with certain characteristics from a particular zone, what is relevant is what characteristics the card in that zone had before it began to be played due to such an ability, not what characteristics the object it becomes this way has that spell has. See also this thread.
In the case of casting a card spell from an adventurer card as an Adventure from the graveyard this way, however, it remains to be seen whether adventurer cards behave like casting a card face down in the sense that the card has only certain characteristics (namely those of the chosen part), rather than those of the card as a whole, before that card goes on the stack (see also C.R. 707.4). "only the alternative characteristics", namely the Adventure characteristics of that card spell, "are evaluated to see if [that card spell] can be cast" (C.R. 715.3a), and such abilities will care only about those characteristics (C.R. 601.3e).
In general, for the purposes of Haakon's second ability, Muldrotha's second ability, Karador's second ability, and any other ability with an effect that lets a player cast a spell with certain characteristics from a particular zone, what is relevant is what characteristics that spell has. See also this thread.
In the case of casting a spell from an adventurer card as an Adventure from the graveyard this way, however, "only the alternative characteristics", namely the Adventure characteristics of that card, "are evaluated to see if [that spell] can be cast" (C.R. 715.3a), and such abilities will generally care only about those characteristics (C.R. 601.3e).
EDIT (Sep. 22): Edited in view of release notes for Throne of Eldraine.
EDIT (Oct. 1): Edited to conform to rule update for Throne of Eldraine.
EDIT (May 5, 2020; May 7, 2020): Edited in view of update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths.
EDIT (Dec. 3, 2020): Rewrite comment for clarity.
EDIT (Mar. 26, 2021): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Nov. 12, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT (Sep. 9, 2023): One rule was renumbered in the meantime. Correctness edit.
In general, for the purposes of Haakon's second ability, Muldrotha's second ability, Karador's second ability, and any other ability with an effect that lets a player play a "card" with certain characteristics from a particular zone, what is relevant is what characteristics the card in that zone had before it began to be played due to such an ability, not what characteristics the object it becomes this way has. See also this thread.
In the case of casting an adventure from the graveyard this way, however, it remains to be seen whether creature/adventure cards behave like casting a card face down in the sense that the card has only certain characteristics (namely those of the chosen part), rather than those of the card as a whole, before that card goes on the stack (see also C.R. 707.4).
The link is helpful, though it did bring up another argument I had with Mystic Forge: Apparently you can play a morph creature from top of your library, regardless of its actual color or if it was a land like Zoetic Cavern. If there's a Lantern of Insight in play where everyone reveals the top card of their library, how would I justify playing a morph creature when it's clearly NOT a colorless card?
Yet I could, so perhaps as long as the spell could be cast as a certain type (colorless, knight in grave, etc), it goes on the stack like a fired bullet, much like Eldrazi cast trigger that will happen even if you counter the Eldrazi itself.
Hopefully WotC can address this type of questions all together with the release of Eldraine, I'm dying to know better.
The link is helpful, though it did bring up another argument I had with Mystic Forge: Apparently you can play a morph creature from top of your library, regardless of its actual color or if it was a land like Zoetic Cavern. If there's a Lantern of Insight in play where everyone reveals the top card of their library, how would I justify playing a morph creature when it's clearly NOT a colorless card?
Yet I could, so perhaps as long as the spell could be cast as a certain type (colorless, knight in grave, etc), it goes on the stack like a fired bullet, much like Eldrazi cast trigger that will happen even if you counter the Eldrazi itself.
If a card is cast face down using morph, it's turned face down and it becomes "a 2/2 face-down creature card with no text ... and no mana cost" and without certain other characteristics, and "[a]ny effects ... that would apply to casting a card with these characteristics (and not [necessarily a card with] the face-up card's characteristics) are applied to casting [that] card" (C.R. 702.37c; see also C.R. 702.37b). This is true regardless of whether or not that card is revealed.
Note also that C.R. 708.9 covers certain cases when face-down objects must be revealed to all players.
EDIT (Mar. 26, 2021): Edited in view of changes in Mystic Forge's Oracle text.
EDIT (Nov. 12, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
- If you cast an adventurer card as an Adventure, use only its alternative characteristics to determine whether it's legal to cast that spell. For example, if Giant Killer is exiled with the last ability of Vivien, Champion of the Wilds, you can't cast it as Chop Down.
Which I presume Haakon cannot cast the instant/sorcery part of an adventure card because you need to cast it as instant/sorcery. Kess on the other hand would allow you to cast adventure cards as instant/sorcery from your graveyard.
"Rule 601.3b tells us that if an effect allows you to cast a spell with certain characteristics as though it had Flash (like Sigarda’s Aid for Auras), you’re allowed to factor in choices you make later on in the spellcasting process, such as choosing to use Bestow."
So how does this interact with rules like Haakon/Kess and Adventure spells? I presume the process of casting a Bestow creature as aura is similar to Adventure, both are creature cards in their basic state, so if Sigarda's Aid allows you to cast bestow in instant speed, wouldn't Haakon allow you to cast the Adventure part of a knight?
"Rule 601.3b tells us that if an effect allows you to cast a spell with certain characteristics as though it had Flash (like Sigarda’s Aid for Auras), you’re allowed to factor in choices you make later on in the spellcasting process, such as choosing to use Bestow."
So how does this interact with rules like Haakon/Kess and Adventure spells? I presume the process of casting a Bestow creature as aura is similar to Adventure, both are creature cards in their basic state, so if Sigarda's Aid allows you to cast bestow in instant speed, wouldn't Haakon allow you to cast the Adventure part of a knight?
In general, for the purposes of Haakon's second ability, what is relevant is whether the card in question was a Knight card in Haakon's controller's graveyard before that player began to play it due to that ability; whether the object that card becomes is a Knight spell or a Knight permanent (as the case may be) is irrelevantis a Knight spell on the stack. However, in the case of casting an adventurer card as an Adventure, it remains to be seen if the comprehensive rules will provide—
that the adventurer card becomes a card with its alternative characteristics before it goes on the stack (similarly to casting a card face down) so that the effect will care about the card's alternative characteristics, or
that the adventurer card doesn't have its alternative characteristics until the first moment it's on the stack, so that the effect will care about the card's normal characteristics.
none of the adventurer cards in Magic have Adventure characteristics that include the Knight creature type, so if the card would be cast as an Adventure, it generally won't be treated as a Knight cardspell for the purposes of Haakon's second ability (C.R. 715.3a, 601.3e).
EDIT (Oct. 1; Oct. 6): Edited, including in view of the updated comprehensive rules for Throne of Eldraine being available.
EDIT (Jan. 23, 2020): Added "generally" for correctness.
EDIT (May 5, 2020): Edited in view of update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths.
EDIT (Nov. 12, 2021; Sep. 9, 2023): One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT: Although, it appears you are asking a different question and the answer to that is that the rules handle the "Flash" allowance differently. The Bestow difference comes up with the situation in Eli's tweet
To further confuse this, as I had a question regarding Adventure answered:
Cascade works off the CMC of the creature to determine if you cast either side, but Electrodominance works off of whichever half you're trying to cast.
So it seems to be a matter of how selection is being done. If you're choosing a spell to match the conditions broadly (say: Haakon, Kess) you have to match exactly what they want (Knights, Instant/Sorcery). But if you're presented with a card and it checks for a detail (in Cascade's case: CMC) then once that check is done the entire card passes, either side works.
To further confuse this, as I had a question regarding Adventure answered:
Cascade works off the CMC of the creature to determine if you cast either side, but Electrodominance works off of whichever half you're trying to cast.
So it seems to be a matter of how selection is being done. If you're choosing a spell to match the conditions broadly (say: Haakon, Kess) you have to match exactly what they want (Knights, Instant/Sorcery). But if you're presented with a card and it checks for a detail (in Cascade's case: CMC) then once that check is done the entire card passes, either side works.
Compare Electrodominance ("You may cast a card with converted mana cost X or less from your hand...") with cascade ("...until you exile a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell's converted mana cost. You may cast that card...") (C.R. 702.84a). The cascade ability doesn't care about a card's converted mana cost at the moment the card starts to be cast, unlike with Electrodominance.
EDIT (May 5, 2020): Struck out in view of update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths.
Sunbird's Invocation would act more like Electrodominance for exactly the same reason.
I suppose these rulings would also apply to the new rulings for Split cards for much the same reason (minus the Split card CMC off the stack thing, which Adventure handles differently). But it's a good baseline to separate how various cards interact with Adventure.
601.3E
We had some contradictory rulings going on about split cards versus morph and when you look at what sets of characteristics. Adventures gave us the reason to shore up these rules. This isn't a change for morph, but it does change some answers for split cards: if you're allowed to cast a spell with a certain mana cost or color, look only at the half you're casting. Kari Zev's Expertise will allow you to cast Beck (but not Call).
But stop right there before you get too excited—you can't cascade into Beck // Call with Shardless Agent, since cascade finds a card with a certain converted mana cost and then says that you can cast the card you found. Beck // Call's converted mana cost is 8, and 8 > 3, so you're still out of luck with cascade.
601.4
The old 601.3 rule started off by talking about whether it was legal to begin casting, and then all of its subrules went into details. But then the main rule continued on talking about what if it became illegal! I broke that out into its own rule and added clarity that becoming illegal after the proposal is done doesn't matter.
It looks like they've shored up the rules, but I don't see the new Comp rules yet, the ones up are still from 8/23 (probably will be until release date).
However, the change to move the legality check to a new inserted 601.4 raises some serious questions. It seems that becoming illegal after the fact is now no longer an issue, but this may tie into the change to 601.3E, which will let us know what attributes to look at when trying to determine whether the spell can be cast...
This is an explicit acknowledgment that the phrasing of seeking a matching card, versus just acting with a matching card, is relevant to the self-transforming power of split cards and embedded cards (adventures).
Among other things. I don't mean to answer bob's question with this post. I'd try to do that, too, but I currently don't know what bob's question is.
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I suppose it was more confusion rather than questions. I was intrigued by how the rules would be worded compared to the old version. Now that the rules are up, it's pretty straight forward: You take into account any choices, and those choices replace the current characteristics.
So under the old rules, you could check legality to begin to cast under haakon, change the characteristics, then it would check legality again and fail.
Now, under the reworked 601.3e, you just check legality based on what you actually want to do, rather than go through those hoops. Makes a lot more sense.
601.3e If a rule or effect states that only an alternative set of characteristics or a subset of characteristics are considered to determine if a card or copy of a card is legal to cast, those alternative characteristics replace the object’s characteristics prior to determining whether the player may begin to cast it.
Example: Garruk’s Horde says, in part, “You may cast the top card of your library if it’s a creature card.” If you control Garruk’s Horde and the top card of your library is a noncreature card with morph, you may cast it using its morph ability.
Example: Melek, Izzet Paragon says, in part, “You may cast the top card of your library if it’s an instant or sorcery card.” If you control Melek, Izzet Paragon and the top card of your library is Giant Killer, an adventurer creature card whose Adventure is an instant named Chop Down, you may cast Chop Down but not Giant Killer. If instead you control Garruk’s Horde and the top card of your library is Giant Killer, you may cast Giant Killer but not Chop Down.
The rules for cascade changed in a recent announcement on the Banned and Restricted List.
Now cascade means, in relevant part: "You may cast that card without paying its mana cost if the resulting spell's mana value is less than this spell's mana value" (C.R. 702.85a).
What this now means for cascade is that if, with cascade, you exile an adventurer card whose mana value is less than that of the spell with cascade (e.g., exile Fae of Wishes with Bloodbraid Elf's cascade), you can't choose to cast it as an Adventure unless the Adventure part's mana value is likewise less than that of the spell with cascade (so to continue the example, you can't cast Granted this way since its mana value is not less than Bloodbraid Elf's of 4).
EDIT (Feb. 17, 2021): Edited.
EDIT (Mar. 7, 2021): Edited to conform to the text as it actually appears in the comprehensive rules.
EDIT (Nov. 12, 2021): Edited to conform to changes in the rules in the meantime.
The rules for cascade changed in a recent announcement on the Banned and Restricted List.
Now cascade means, in relevant part: "You may cast that card without paying its mana cost if the resulting spell's converted mana cost is less than this spell's converted mana cost" (C.R. 702.84a).
What this now means for cascade is that if, with cascade, you exile an adventurer card whose converted mana cost is less than that of the spell with cascade (e.g., exile Fae of Wishes with Bloodbraid Elf's cascade), you can't choose to cast it as an Adventure unless the Adventure part's converted mana cost is likewise less than that of the spell with cascade (so to continue the example, you can't cast Granted this way since its converted mana cost is not less than Bloodbraid Elf's of 4).
EDIT (Feb. 17, 2021): Edited.
EDIT (Mar. 7, 2021): Edited to conform to the text as it actually appears in the comprehensive rules.
I hate to rehash this topic, but I'd like some clarification.
Haakon's ability says, in part, "... Knight CARD..." I was led to believe this refers to the cardboard as a whole. This seems relevant because some cards (ex: Mausoleum Secrets) say, in part, "search for a black CARD" which includes even hybrid cards.
Why is it that the Adventure (as on Murderous Rider) can't be cast with Haakon even though it's effectively part of a Knight CARD?
I read the rules responses such as 601.3e which satisfies the concept that it's not a Knight CARD, but I feel my specific question would suggest a conflict between that rule and "the rule about Cardboard being the whole card."
It would help if any rules response included emboldened text where specifically relevant.
Thank you!
Just read the current Oracle text of Haakon. It now says "... you may cast Knight spells from your graveyard ...". Swift End is not a Knight spell, so you cannot cast it with Haakon.
Or any card that allows you to cast creature spells from graveyard, is it possible to cast adventure half of the card while doing so?
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Casting a spell is a fairly complex process, outlined by rules 601.2. In short, it involves the process of putting a card on the stack, choosing targets, paying costs, and once all steps are complete, the spell is cast.
Note: Rules updates are typically included when a new set is released. As such, all pre-release cards and interactions can only be evaluated under how the current rules operate.
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Base on what I've heard, creature CARDS with Adventure are creatures in every zone except on stack (when you chose it to be Adventure), which is why I wonder if Haakon could cast a knight-adventure from graveyard.
Though, base on Bobthefunny's explanation, Adventure spells cannot resolve due to the game realizing the spell isn't a Knight spell, therefore deem it impossible to cast.
Here's a relevant question: If I have both Haakon and Kess, Dissident Mage on battlefield, one lets me cast knight spell the other allows me to cast an instant/sorcery during my turn, would it work?
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In general, for the purposes of Haakon's second ability, Muldrotha's second ability, Karador's second ability, and any other ability with an effect that lets a player play a "card" cast a spell with certain characteristics from a particular zone, what is relevant is what characteristics the card in that zone had before it began to be played due to such an ability, not what characteristics the object it becomes this way has that spell has. See also this thread.
In the case of casting a card spell from an adventurer card as an Adventure from the graveyard this way, however, it remains to be seen whether adventurer cards behave like casting a card face down in the sense that the card has only certain characteristics (namely those of the chosen part), rather than those of the card as a whole, before that card goes on the stack (see also C.R. 707.4). "only the alternative characteristics", namely the Adventure characteristics of that card spell, "are evaluated to see if [that card spell] can be cast" (C.R. 715.3a), and such abilities will care only about those characteristics (C.R. 601.3e).
In general, for the purposes of Haakon's second ability, Muldrotha's second ability, Karador's second ability, and any other ability with an effect that lets a player cast a spell with certain characteristics from a particular zone, what is relevant is what characteristics that spell has. See also this thread.
In the case of casting a spell from an adventurer card as an Adventure from the graveyard this way, however, "only the alternative characteristics", namely the Adventure characteristics of that card, "are evaluated to see if [that spell] can be cast" (C.R. 715.3a), and such abilities will generally care only about those characteristics (C.R. 601.3e).
EDIT (Sep. 22): Edited in view of release notes for Throne of Eldraine.
EDIT (Oct. 1): Edited to conform to rule update for Throne of Eldraine.
EDIT (May 5, 2020; May 7, 2020): Edited in view of update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths.
EDIT (Dec. 3, 2020): Rewrite comment for clarity.
EDIT (Mar. 26, 2021): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Nov. 12, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT (Sep. 9, 2023): One rule was renumbered in the meantime. Correctness edit.
The link is helpful, though it did bring up another argument I had with Mystic Forge: Apparently you can play a morph creature from top of your library, regardless of its actual color or if it was a land like Zoetic Cavern. If there's a Lantern of Insight in play where everyone reveals the top card of their library, how would I justify playing a morph creature when it's clearly NOT a colorless card?
Yet I could, so perhaps as long as the spell could be cast as a certain type (colorless, knight in grave, etc), it goes on the stack like a fired bullet, much like Eldrazi cast trigger that will happen even if you counter the Eldrazi itself.
Hopefully WotC can address this type of questions all together with the release of Eldraine, I'm dying to know better.
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Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Note also that C.R. 708.9 covers certain cases when face-down objects must be revealed to all players.
EDIT (Mar. 26, 2021): Edited in view of changes in Mystic Forge's Oracle text.
EDIT (Nov. 12, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
- If you cast an adventurer card as an Adventure, use only its alternative characteristics to determine whether it's legal to cast that spell. For example, if Giant Killer is exiled with the last ability of Vivien, Champion of the Wilds, you can't cast it as Chop Down.
Which I presume Haakon cannot cast the instant/sorcery part of an adventure card because you need to cast it as instant/sorcery. Kess on the other hand would allow you to cast adventure cards as instant/sorcery from your graveyard.
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Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
"Rule 601.3b tells us that if an effect allows you to cast a spell with certain characteristics as though it had Flash (like Sigarda’s Aid for Auras), you’re allowed to factor in choices you make later on in the spellcasting process, such as choosing to use Bestow."
So how does this interact with rules like Haakon/Kess and Adventure spells? I presume the process of casting a Bestow creature as aura is similar to Adventure, both are creature cards in their basic state, so if Sigarda's Aid allows you to cast bestow in instant speed, wouldn't Haakon allow you to cast the Adventure part of a knight?
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Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
was a Knight card in Haakon's controller's graveyard before that player began to play it due to that ability; whether the object that card becomes is a Knight spell or a Knight permanent (as the case may be) is irrelevantis a Knight spell on the stack. However, in the case of casting an adventurer card as an Adventure,it remains to be seen if the comprehensive rules will provide—- that the adventurer card becomes a card with its alternative characteristics before it goes on the stack (similarly to casting a card face down) so that the effect will care about the card's alternative characteristics, or
- that the adventurer card doesn't have its alternative characteristics until the first moment it's on the stack, so that the effect will care about the card's normal characteristics.
none of the adventurer cards in Magic have Adventure characteristics that include the Knight creature type, so if the card would be cast as an Adventure, it generally won't be treated as a Knightcardspell for the purposes of Haakon's second ability (C.R. 715.3a, 601.3e).EDIT (Oct. 1; Oct. 6): Edited, including in view of the updated comprehensive rules for Throne of Eldraine being available.
EDIT (Jan. 23, 2020): Added "generally" for correctness.
EDIT (May 5, 2020): Edited in view of update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths.
EDIT (Nov. 12, 2021; Sep. 9, 2023): One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
https://twitter.com/EliShffrn/status/1171439066685960194?s=19
EDIT: Although, it appears you are asking a different question and the answer to that is that the rules handle the "Flash" allowance differently. The Bestow difference comes up with the situation in Eli's tweet
Cascade works off the CMC of the creature to determine if you cast either side, but Electrodominance works off of whichever half you're trying to cast.
So it seems to be a matter of how selection is being done. If you're choosing a spell to match the conditions broadly (say: Haakon, Kess) you have to match exactly what they want (Knights, Instant/Sorcery). But if you're presented with a card and it checks for a detail (in Cascade's case: CMC) then once that check is done the entire card passes, either side works.
Link
Compare Electrodominance ("You may cast a card with converted mana cost X or less from your hand...") with cascade ("...until you exile a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell's converted mana cost. You may cast that card...") (C.R. 702.84a). The cascade ability doesn't care about a card's converted mana cost at the moment the card starts to be cast, unlike with Electrodominance.EDIT (May 5, 2020): Struck out in view of update with Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths.
Possibility Storm would work like Cascade (replace check CMC with check card type). You cannot get Swift End with Opt, but you can cast Swift End off Birds of Paradise. Rashmi, Eternities Crafter would match.
Sunbird's Invocation would act more like Electrodominance for exactly the same reason.
I suppose these rulings would also apply to the new rulings for Split cards for much the same reason (minus the Split card CMC off the stack thing, which Adventure handles differently). But it's a good baseline to separate how various cards interact with Adventure.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/throne-eldraine-update-bulletin-2019-09-27
It looks like they've shored up the rules, but I don't see the new Comp rules yet, the ones up are still from 8/23 (probably will be until release date).
However, the change to move the legality check to a new inserted 601.4 raises some serious questions. It seems that becoming illegal after the fact is now no longer an issue, but this may tie into the change to 601.3E, which will let us know what attributes to look at when trying to determine whether the spell can be cast...
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Among other things. I don't mean to answer bob's question with this post. I'd try to do that, too, but I currently don't know what bob's question is.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
So under the old rules, you could check legality to begin to cast under haakon, change the characteristics, then it would check legality again and fail.
Now, under the reworked 601.3e, you just check legality based on what you actually want to do, rather than go through those hoops. Makes a lot more sense.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Now cascade means, in relevant part: "You may cast that card without paying its mana cost if the resulting spell's mana value is less than this spell's mana value" (C.R. 702.85a).
What this now means for cascade is that if, with cascade, you exile an adventurer card whose mana value is less than that of the spell with cascade (e.g., exile Fae of Wishes with Bloodbraid Elf's cascade), you can't choose to cast it as an Adventure unless the Adventure part's mana value is likewise less than that of the spell with cascade (so to continue the example, you can't cast Granted this way since its mana value is not less than Bloodbraid Elf's of 4).
EDIT (Feb. 17, 2021): Edited.
EDIT (Mar. 7, 2021): Edited to conform to the text as it actually appears in the comprehensive rules.
EDIT (Nov. 12, 2021): Edited to conform to changes in the rules in the meantime.
Thanks for updating, this is very helpful.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Haakon's ability says, in part, "... Knight CARD..." I was led to believe this refers to the cardboard as a whole. This seems relevant because some cards (ex: Mausoleum Secrets) say, in part, "search for a black CARD" which includes even hybrid cards.
Why is it that the Adventure (as on Murderous Rider) can't be cast with Haakon even though it's effectively part of a Knight CARD?
I read the rules responses such as 601.3e which satisfies the concept that it's not a Knight CARD, but I feel my specific question would suggest a conflict between that rule and "the rule about Cardboard being the whole card."
It would help if any rules response included emboldened text where specifically relevant.
Thank you!
Former Rules Advisor
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