Untap, upkeep, I draw Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord.
I attack with the Ebon Legion (yes, I could have pulled the Epicure from the graveyard first, but I didn't want to increase the pressure to kill the Ebon Knight). He blocked with a Firebrand, I gain 1 life from Vengeful Sorin. I use Vengeful Sorin to put the Epicure onto the Battlefield.
Now, here's where it gets ugly...
I cast Imperious Sorin with two swap & a plains, and, when he resolves +1 him to sacrifice a vampire, the Ebon Knight, to do 3 damage.
Vengeful Sorin give Imperious Sorin Lifelink, so I gain 3 life, which triggers Epicure.
Vengeful Sorin gives Epicure Lifelink, so I gain a life, which triggers the Epicure (5 damage so far)...
Imperious Sorin gives me 3 life (the second half of the ability), which triggers the Epicure
Vengeful Sorin gives Epicure Lifelink, so I gain a life, which triggers the Epicure (7 damage so far)...
The dead Ebon Knight triggers the Celebrant, dealing 1 to my opponent.
Vengeful Sorin gives the Celebrant Lifelink, so I gain a life, which triggers the Epicure.
Vengeful Sorin gives Epicure Lifelink, so I gain a life, which triggers the Epicure (10 damage so far)...
The Celebrant then gives me a life, which triggers the Epicure.
Vengeful Sorin gives Epicure Lifelink, so I gain a life, which triggers the Epicure (12 damage)...
Any of the lines that ends with... is basically triggering the Epicure with every point of damage the Epicure does; it seems to create an infinite damage loop because 1) there is a valid trigger (lifelink on the Epicure), and 2) the state of the game actually changes (someone takes a point of damage).
So, I have two questions:
1) How should the damage be counted when the Epicure triggers himself?
2) Does anyone notice if I missed any damage in the play?
3) BTW, I assume everything after the "...get ugly..." comment is actually the stack, so I'd appreciate any help if I screwed that up.
Lifelink doesn't let you gain life from Epicure of Blood causing life loss. It didn't deal damage.
Also, the Vengeful Sorin gives you 6 life in that combo.
edit: Oh I see, you're adding up the twice gain 3 life. I need to research if that's correct. It might happen at the same time, and it's definitely from the same source.
Lifelink doesn't let you gain life from Epicure of Blood causing life loss. It didn't deal damage.
Also, the Vengeful Sorin gives you 6 life in that combo.
edit: Oh I see, you're adding up the twice gain 3 life. I need to research if that's correct. It might happen at the same time, and it's definitely from the same source.
MTG Wiki says:
The ability causes life gain whenever a permanent with lifelink deals any damage, not just combat damage. MTG Wiki: Lifelink
The Sorin deals three (triggers lifelink which triggers the Epicure), then gives me three life (which triggers the Epicure). Based on the link above, the Epicure then triggers the Epicure. I'm wondering if I have the Stack jacked...er...messed up. BTW, yes, I gained a lot of life. He untapped, upkeep, drew and resigned.
That was the ruling in the tournament, too, so I'm still confused.
Yeah Sorin will trigger Epicure from dealing damage. But Epicure doesn't deal damage.
I can't find anything on whether "deal N |lifelink| damage and gain N life" will give you two lifegain events or one. But I know an [O]fficial statement on this came out at some point. It cleared up a lot about combining effects with the word "and" or alternate conjunctions in spell effects.
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So the first thing to note is that lifelink only works with damage and not life loss so Cruel Celebrant and Epicure of Blood having lifelink doesn't matter as they don't deal damage.'
The way the scenario would resolve the Imperious Sorin activated ability would resolve dealing 3 damage and gaining 6 life in two separate acts so epicure will trigger twice and Cruel Celebrant would trigger once. The epicure triggers resolve as normal and Cruel Celebrant trigger would resolve, but then trigger epicure one additional time because you gained life. At the end you would have dealt 7 damage to a target (assuming it's a player) and gained 7 life.
Yeah Sorin will trigger Epicure from dealing damage. But Epicure doesn't deal damage.
I can't find anything on whether "deal N |lifelink| damage and gain N life" will give you two lifegain events or one. But I know an [O]fficial statement on this came out at some point. It cleared up a lot about combining effects with the word "and" or alternate conjunctions in spell effects.
So the first thing to note is that lifelink only works with damage and not life loss so Cruel Celebrant and Epicure of Blood having lifelink doesn't matter as they don't deal damage.'
The way the scenario would resolve the Imperious Sorin activated ability would resolve dealing 3 damage and gaining 6 life in two separate acts so epicure will trigger twice and Cruel Celebrant would trigger once. The epicure triggers resolve as normal and Cruel Celebrant trigger would resolve, but then trigger epicure one additional time because you gained life. At the end you would have dealt 7 damage to a target (assuming it's a player) and gained 7 life.
Yeah Sorin will trigger Epicure from dealing damage. But Epicure doesn't deal damage.
I can't find anything on whether "deal N |lifelink| damage and gain N life" will give you two lifegain events or one. But I know an [O]fficial statement on this came out at some point. It cleared up a lot about combining effects with the word "and" or alternate conjunctions in spell effects.
OK, this makes a bit more sense, but I still have a question around the damage dealt issue. Is "damage dealt" basically from the creatures power only (either in combat or the result of, say, Prey Upon, and not from anything else detailed in teh Oracle Text?
So the first thing to note is that lifelink only works with damage and not life loss so Cruel Celebrant and Epicure of Blood having lifelink doesn't matter as they don't deal damage.'
The way the scenario would resolve the Imperious Sorin activated ability would resolve dealing 3 damage and gaining 6 life in two separate acts so epicure will trigger twice and Cruel Celebrant would trigger once. The epicure triggers resolve as normal and Cruel Celebrant trigger would resolve, but then trigger epicure one additional time because you gained life. At the end you would have dealt 7 damage to a target (assuming it's a player) and gained 7 life.
I came up with the player gaining 8 life and the opponent losing 7 with the end result being AP:16 and NAP:11. However, as per the OPs post, I am counting the initial combat between Knight of the Ebon Legion and Fanatical Firebrand in my calculations.
Generally the ability will detail whether it is damage or loss of life. Fanatical Firebrand deals damage with its ability for example and Vicious Conquistidor's triggered ability is loss of life.
Thanks for all the input. He would have taken a beating 8-12 points a turn since I had the bouncing combo of the Ebon Knight and/or Conquistador, but the verbiage of the Oracle Text determines if Lifelink would trigger the Epicure; loss of life isn't "damage" per se.
I appreciate the help.
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Health Me: 8 Him: 18
He has a Goblin Chainwhirler and two Fanatical Firebrand.
I have Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord with 8 loyalty, Cruel Celebrant, and Knight of the Ebon Legion.
In my graveyard is Epicure of Blood
I have 8 mana: 4 Swamp, 2 Plains, and 2 Godless Shrine
Untap, upkeep, I draw Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord.
I attack with the Ebon Legion (yes, I could have pulled the Epicure from the graveyard first, but I didn't want to increase the pressure to kill the Ebon Knight). He blocked with a Firebrand, I gain 1 life from Vengeful Sorin. I use Vengeful Sorin to put the Epicure onto the Battlefield.
Now, here's where it gets ugly...
I cast Imperious Sorin with two swap & a plains, and, when he resolves +1 him to sacrifice a vampire, the Ebon Knight, to do 3 damage.
Vengeful Sorin give Imperious Sorin Lifelink, so I gain 3 life, which triggers Epicure.
Vengeful Sorin gives Epicure Lifelink, so I gain a life, which triggers the Epicure (5 damage so far)...
Imperious Sorin gives me 3 life (the second half of the ability), which triggers the Epicure
Vengeful Sorin gives Epicure Lifelink, so I gain a life, which triggers the Epicure (7 damage so far)...
The dead Ebon Knight triggers the Celebrant, dealing 1 to my opponent.
Vengeful Sorin gives the Celebrant Lifelink, so I gain a life, which triggers the Epicure.
Vengeful Sorin gives Epicure Lifelink, so I gain a life, which triggers the Epicure (10 damage so far)...
The Celebrant then gives me a life, which triggers the Epicure.
Vengeful Sorin gives Epicure Lifelink, so I gain a life, which triggers the Epicure (12 damage)...
I played a Vicious Conquistador with a swamp and end my turn.
Any of the lines that ends with... is basically triggering the Epicure with every point of damage the Epicure does; it seems to create an infinite damage loop because 1) there is a valid trigger (lifelink on the Epicure), and 2) the state of the game actually changes (someone takes a point of damage).
So, I have two questions:
1) How should the damage be counted when the Epicure triggers himself?
2) Does anyone notice if I missed any damage in the play?
3) BTW, I assume everything after the "...get ugly..." comment is actually the stack, so I'd appreciate any help if I screwed that up.
Thanks.
Kurt.
Also, the Vengeful Sorin gives you 6 life in that combo.
edit: Oh I see, you're adding up the twice gain 3 life. I need to research if that's correct. It might happen at the same time, and it's definitely from the same source.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
MTG Wiki says:
The ability causes life gain whenever a permanent with lifelink deals any damage, not just combat damage.
MTG Wiki: Lifelink
The Sorin deals three (triggers lifelink which triggers the Epicure), then gives me three life (which triggers the Epicure). Based on the link above, the Epicure then triggers the Epicure. I'm wondering if I have the Stack jacked...er...messed up. BTW, yes, I gained a lot of life. He untapped, upkeep, drew and resigned.
That was the ruling in the tournament, too, so I'm still confused.
I can't find anything on whether "deal N |lifelink| damage and gain N life" will give you two lifegain events or one. But I know an [O]fficial statement on this came out at some point. It cleared up a lot about combining effects with the word "and" or alternate conjunctions in spell effects.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
The way the scenario would resolve the Imperious Sorin activated ability would resolve dealing 3 damage and gaining 6 life in two separate acts so epicure will trigger twice and Cruel Celebrant would trigger once. The epicure triggers resolve as normal and Cruel Celebrant trigger would resolve, but then trigger epicure one additional time because you gained life. At the end you would have dealt 7 damage to a target (assuming it's a player) and gained 7 life.
The last ruling on Firesong and Sunspeaker should be the same as this scenario.
OK, this makes a bit more sense, but I still have a question around the damage dealt issue. Is "damage dealt" basically from the creatures power only (either in combat or the result of, say, Prey Upon, and not from anything else detailed in teh Oracle Text?
Thanks again...
I came up with the player gaining 8 life and the opponent losing 7 with the end result being AP:16 and NAP:11. However, as per the OPs post, I am counting the initial combat between Knight of the Ebon Legion and Fanatical Firebrand in my calculations.
Thanks for all the input. He would have taken a beating 8-12 points a turn since I had the bouncing combo of the Ebon Knight and/or Conquistador, but the verbiage of the Oracle Text determines if Lifelink would trigger the Epicure; loss of life isn't "damage" per se.
I appreciate the help.