If Ugin, the Ineffable leaves the battlefield for any reason with any number of 2/2 Spirit tokens on the field created from the +1 ability, do the exiled cards still return to owners hand when the Spirit token leaves the field?
Once Ugin's first loyalty ability is activated, it exists independently of Ugin (C.R. 112.7a); thus its effect, as well as the delayed triggered ability it creates, is not tied to whether Ugin is still on the battlefield since it doesn't specify that it is (compare Ugin with Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker). And the "exiled card" still refers to the appropriate card in exile that was put there due to Ugin's first loyalty ability regardless of whether Ugin is still on the battlefield (C.R. 607.2a, 607.1c; see also C.R. 608.2g); if this weren't the case, many leaves-the-battlefield abilities that refer to an "exiled card", such as Oblivion Ring's, wouldn't even work.
I understand what you’re saying and C.R 112.7a makes sense, I think. But the rest of the rules er... don’t make sense.. sort of.
So if a player say, attaches Kasmina's Transmutation to the Spirit token, it still wouldn’t matter. The token leaves play and the exiled card returns to the owners hand. Is that the correct interpretation?
Is there a circumstance where the card wouldn’t/couldn’t return from exile once the token leaves exile? Like how Oubliette can be bounced before the first ability resolves to keep exiled creatures exiled permanently.
There are exactly zero situations I can think of where making the 2/2 Spirit token leave the battlefield wouldn't return the card to your hand.
It isn't an ability granted to the token. It's just a thing that is Simply True. The entire ability of Ugin's +1 (a) makes the token and (b) sets up the delayed trigger that returns the exiled card to its owner's hand if the token ever leaves the battlefield.
The rest of the rules work just fine. Misreading them doesn't make them any less correct.
If something exiles the card from exile, then it wouldn't be found by the delayed trigger. But that's really just an example of objects moving zones ceasing to be themselves, plus the peculiar rule for exiling from the exile zone also counting as this.
But the delayed triggered ability will definitely always trigger if the token leaves the battlefield. If the token exists, the ability resolved. If the ability resolved, all of its effects went into... effect. And a delayed triggered ability waiting to trigger is completely non-interactable. There are as yet no variants of Torpor Orb that would block this kind of ability. It will be there, and it will trigger.
This is really what this situation is about. Delayed triggered abilities are things created by instructions. It's like an effect of a spell or ability makes an ability, which isn't of any object or player at that point. And when it triggers, you get a triggered ability to put on the Stack and the normal processes apply. But yeah, the ability exists in the aether in between there. It's one of those things that, for instance, are part of Free Information, because there is actually nothing concretely tokened in the game state that corresponds to a delayed triggered ability waiting to trigger. There's no way anyone could know it exists without players paying attention or telling the truth about it.
But that's beside the point. The key thing is, delayed triggered abilities are created by instructions, so they're written in-line in places where you would expect to find instructions of spells and abilities.
(If a replacement makes Ugin create two Spirit tokens instead of creating one, maybe that would make the return instruction fail? I forget how that kind of situation works...)
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(If a replacement makes Ugin create two Spirit tokens instead of creating one, maybe that would make the return instruction fail? I forget how that kind of situation works...)
You'll make two tokens, but they'll both be linked to the exiled card. If either leaves, the exiled card would be returned.
There are exactly zero situations I can think of where making the 2/2 Spirit token leave the battlefield wouldn't return the card to your hand.
It isn't an ability granted to the token. It's just a thing that is Simply True. The entire ability of Ugin's +1 (a) makes the token and (b) sets up the delayed trigger that returns the exiled card to its owner's hand if the token ever leaves the battlefield.
The rest of the rules work just fine. Misreading them doesn't make them any less correct.
I wasn’t implying that the rules aren’t correct. I’m just trying to understand how to play Ugin correctly and, more importantly, make sure my opponent plays it correctly.
In any case thank you both for the clarification.
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And the "exiled card" still refers to the appropriate card in exile that was put there due to Ugin's first loyalty ability regardless of whether Ugin is still on the battlefield (C.R. 607.2a, 607.1c; see also C.R. 608.2g); if this weren't the case, many leaves-the-battlefield abilities that refer to an "exiled card", such as Oblivion Ring's, wouldn't even work.EDIT (Jul. 19): Struck out some text.
So if a player say, attaches Kasmina's Transmutation to the Spirit token, it still wouldn’t matter. The token leaves play and the exiled card returns to the owners hand. Is that the correct interpretation?
Is there a circumstance where the card wouldn’t/couldn’t return from exile once the token leaves exile? Like how Oubliette can be bounced before the first ability resolves to keep exiled creatures exiled permanently.
It isn't an ability granted to the token. It's just a thing that is Simply True. The entire ability of Ugin's +1 (a) makes the token and (b) sets up the delayed trigger that returns the exiled card to its owner's hand if the token ever leaves the battlefield.
The rest of the rules work just fine. Misreading them doesn't make them any less correct.
If something exiles the card from exile, then it wouldn't be found by the delayed trigger. But that's really just an example of objects moving zones ceasing to be themselves, plus the peculiar rule for exiling from the exile zone also counting as this.
But the delayed triggered ability will definitely always trigger if the token leaves the battlefield. If the token exists, the ability resolved. If the ability resolved, all of its effects went into... effect. And a delayed triggered ability waiting to trigger is completely non-interactable. There are as yet no variants of Torpor Orb that would block this kind of ability. It will be there, and it will trigger.
This is really what this situation is about. Delayed triggered abilities are things created by instructions. It's like an effect of a spell or ability makes an ability, which isn't of any object or player at that point. And when it triggers, you get a triggered ability to put on the Stack and the normal processes apply. But yeah, the ability exists in the aether in between there. It's one of those things that, for instance, are part of Free Information, because there is actually nothing concretely tokened in the game state that corresponds to a delayed triggered ability waiting to trigger. There's no way anyone could know it exists without players paying attention or telling the truth about it.
But that's beside the point. The key thing is, delayed triggered abilities are created by instructions, so they're written in-line in places where you would expect to find instructions of spells and abilities.
(If a replacement makes Ugin create two Spirit tokens instead of creating one, maybe that would make the return instruction fail? I forget how that kind of situation works...)
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
I wasn’t implying that the rules aren’t correct. I’m just trying to understand how to play Ugin correctly and, more importantly, make sure my opponent plays it correctly.
In any case thank you both for the clarification.