I've never played during Coldsnap or Ice Age, so I'm not very familiar of how Snow cards actually works. I always tought that any snow permanent could be tapped to pay the S costs of activated abilities or mana cost (since the card remainder text simply mention of "snow permanents" without any other further restriction), but they told me that only snow cards that produce mana produce also snow mana...now, where the rules exactly clarify that you can't use any snow permanent to tap for S but only the snow basics, and stuff like Scrying Sheets? Also, do Thermopod and Arcum's Astrolabe produce S? And if so, by simply tapping them, or you have to sacrifice a creature for Thermopod and pay 1 for Astrolabe? thank you.
The symbol S in a cost means one mana "produced by a snow source"—
whether that source is a basic land, a nonbasic land, a creature, or otherwise, and
whether that mana was produced by tapping the source for mana or otherwise
(C.R. 107.4h). If an object has the supertype "snow", it's a snow source (C.R. 205.4g).
However, there is no such thing as "snow mana"; "[s]now is neither a color nor a type of mana" (C.R. 107.4h; see also C.R. 106.11, a rule newly added with Modern Horizons).
EDIT (Jun. 13): Edited to conform to rule update with Modern Horizons.
EDIT (Dec. 24): Edited.
EDIT (Feb. 4, 2021): Edited to conform to rule update for Kaldheim.
107.4h The snow mana symbol S represents one generic mana in a cost. This generic mana can be paid with one mana of any type produced by a snow permanent (see rule 205.4g). Effects that reduce the amount of generic mana you pay don’t affect S costs. (There is no such thing as “snow mana”; “snow” is not a type of mana.)
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whether that mana was produced by tapping that permanent for mana or otherwise
Wait. Where exaxtly the CR state this? Because even in the rules quoted I can't find this precise statement.
Also, I still don't understand if and how you get S from Thermopod since it does produce mana, but it never taps in order to produce mana. And with Astrolabe i have just to tap or do the filtering ability for S?
whether that mana was produced by tapping that permanent for mana or otherwise
Wait. Where exaxtly the CR state this? Because even in the rules quoted I can't find this precise statement.
Also, I still don't understand if and how you get S from Thermopod since it does produce mana, but it never taps in order to produce mana. And with Astrolabe i have just to tap or do the filtering ability for S?
C.R. 107.4h speaks merely of "one mana of any type produced by a snow source", no matter how that mana was produced this way. For example, it includes cases when—
an ability of a snow permanent (including Thermopod's second ability) gives a player mana, whether it has a cost with the tap symbol or not, or
an ability of a snow permanent that normally has no mana abilities (such as an Adarkar Valkyrie that has "T: Add one mana of any color" due to Cryptolith Rite) (review C.R. 605.1) gives a player mana.
Note that Thermopod's second ability produces R, not S. Neither does Scrying Sheets or Snow-Covered Forest produce S when it's tapped for mana.
EDIT (Feb. 4, 2021): Edited to conform to rule update for Kaldheim.
whether that mana was produced by tapping that permanent for mana or otherwise
Wait. Where exaxtly the CR state this? Because even in the rules quoted I can't find this precise statement.
Also, I still don't understand if and how you get S from Thermopod since it does produce mana, but it never taps in order to produce mana. And with Astrolabe i have just to tap or do the filtering ability for S?
It's essentially the rule quoted above (107.4h), specifically the part "This generic mana can be paid with one mana of any type produced by a snow permanent". So the permanent just has be the one producing the mana, wether tapping was nessessary for that or not is irrelevant.
whether that mana was produced by tapping that permanent for mana or otherwise
Wait. Where exaxtly the CR state this? Because even in the rules quoted I can't find this precise statement.
Also, I still don't understand if and how you get S from Thermopod since it does produce mana, but it never taps in order to produce mana. And with Astrolabe i have just to tap or do the filtering ability for S?
107.4h The snow mana symbol S represents one generic mana in a cost. This generic mana can be paid with one mana of any type produced by a snow permanent (see rule 205.4g). Effects that reduce the amount of generic mana you pay don’t affect S costs. (There is no such thing as “snow mana”; “snow” is not a type of mana.)
Any mana produced by a snow permanent can be used to pay a S it doesn't have to be from a tap ability but it can be from Thermopod's sacrifice ability or an ability granted to the permanent from an outside source like Paradise Mantle
With Astrolabe you have to filter mana in order to turn it into a mana produced by a snow permaent and use that to pay for S
I think the main confusion is what exactly S. The S means 1 generic mana (mana of any color or colorless) that has been produced by a snow permanent. It's not like convoke where you can tap something to help pay, you must pay an actual mana for it.
Ok thank you guys is more clear now...god if this Snow thing is confusing.....
So, essentially you can confirm me that if a card is a snow permanent but don't make mana it means that it serves exclusively for snow-matter cards like Marit's Lage Slumber and nothing else, right?
Ok thank you guys is more clear now...god if this Snow thing is confusing.....
So, essentially you can confirm me that if a card is a snow permanent but don't make mana it means that it serves exclusively for snow-matter cards like Marit's Lage Slumber and nothing else, right?
There are cards that care about snow permanents but don't use the S symbol, such as Rimewind Taskmage and Skred. But having the supertype "snow", but no mana abilities, doesn't make a permanent necessarily "useless".
Ok thank you guys is more clear now...god if this Snow thing is confusing.....
So, essentially you can confirm me that if a card is a snow permanent but don't make mana it means that it serves exclusively for snow-matter cards like Marit's Lage Slumber and nothing else, right?
There are cards that care about snow permanents but don't use the S symbol, such as Rimewind Taskmage and Skred. But having the supertype "snow", but no mana abilities, doesn't make a permanent necessarily "useless".
Yeah thats what I was asking....the confusing thing is that I didn't realized that the supertype snow on every permanent were present only in Coldsnap which is the same set that create also the "snow-matter" cards like the taskmage....While in Ice Age, there were no snow permanents other than the basic lands (and no "snow matter" things) so the supertype snow was a syononym for a S producer at that point.
No, a Treasure token is not a snow permanent. Only permanents with the snow supertype are snow permanents, and only those can produce snow mana (if they have a mana ability to do so).
Also, please don't revive years old threads with new questions. Rather, create a new thread for such a question.
For purposes of effects that say to create a "Treasure token", a "Treasure token is a colorless Treasure artifact token with" a particular activated ability (C.R. 111.10a). And because a token has no characteristics not specified (C.R. 111.3), the token created this way is not a snow permanent (unless otherwise specified by the effect). This is true even if the effect comes from an ability of a snow permanent.
(C.R. 107.4h). If an object has the supertype "snow", it's a snow source (C.R. 205.4g).
However, there is no such thing as "snow mana"; "[s]now is neither a color nor a type of mana" (C.R. 107.4h; see also C.R. 106.11, a rule newly added with Modern Horizons).
EDIT (Jun. 13): Edited to conform to rule update with Modern Horizons.
EDIT (Dec. 24): Edited.
EDIT (Feb. 4, 2021): Edited to conform to rule update for Kaldheim.
-Modern-
WMartyrProcB
BBurnR
-Commander-
Wait. Where exaxtly the CR state this? Because even in the rules quoted I can't find this precise statement.
Also, I still don't understand if and how you get S from Thermopod since it does produce mana, but it never taps in order to produce mana. And with Astrolabe i have just to tap or do the filtering ability for S?
Note that Thermopod's second ability produces R, not S. Neither does Scrying Sheets or Snow-Covered Forest produce S when it's tapped for mana.
EDIT (Feb. 4, 2021): Edited to conform to rule update for Kaldheim.
It's essentially the rule quoted above (107.4h), specifically the part "This generic mana can be paid with one mana of any type produced by a snow permanent". So the permanent just has be the one producing the mana, wether tapping was nessessary for that or not is irrelevant.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
107.4h The snow mana symbol S represents one generic mana in a cost. This generic mana can be paid with one mana of any type produced by a snow permanent (see rule 205.4g). Effects that reduce the amount of generic mana you pay don’t affect S costs. (There is no such thing as “snow mana”; “snow” is not a type of mana.)
Any mana produced by a snow permanent can be used to pay a S it doesn't have to be from a tap ability but it can be from Thermopod's sacrifice ability or an ability granted to the permanent from an outside source like Paradise Mantle
With Astrolabe you have to filter mana in order to turn it into a mana produced by a snow permaent and use that to pay for S
I think the main confusion is what exactly S. The S means 1 generic mana (mana of any color or colorless) that has been produced by a snow permanent. It's not like convoke where you can tap something to help pay, you must pay an actual mana for it.
So, essentially you can confirm me that if a card is a snow permanent but don't make mana it means that it serves exclusively for snow-matter cards like Marit's Lage Slumber and nothing else, right?
Yeah thats what I was asking....the confusing thing is that I didn't realized that the supertype snow on every permanent were present only in Coldsnap which is the same set that create also the "snow-matter" cards like the taskmage....While in Ice Age, there were no snow permanents other than the basic lands (and no "snow matter" things) so the supertype snow was a syononym for a S producer at that point.
Also, please don't revive years old threads with new questions. Rather, create a new thread for such a question.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
At the time of this writing only two cards have abilities that explicitly create snow tokens: Replicating Ring and Svella, Ice Shaper.
Also note that the Treasure artifact type itself (C.R. 205.3g) has no game mechanics inherent to it.