What are current rulings of missed Summoner's Pact trigger on different RELs?
Is it legal to wait until he taps all mana to pay for different things and then remind about missed trigger?
In sanctioned tournaments at Competitive or Professional rules enforcement level, if a player forgets a triggered ability they control (such as Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability) that "specifies a default action associated with a choice made by the controller (usually 'If you don't ...' or '... unless')" (text which formerly appeared in I.P.G. 2.1 before the Ravnica Allegiance update), then the default action (here, losing the game) is no longer automatically performed. Rather, in general, "the opponent chooses whether the triggered ability is added to the stack. If it is, it's inserted at the appropriate place on the stack if possible or on the bottom of the stack" (text retained in that update) (I.P.G. 2.1). See "Policy Changes for Ravnica Allegiance" for more information. See also this thread. In general, however, while playing in such a tournament, even if you know that another player has forgotten Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability, you can point out that fact later in the turn (e.g., when they appear unable to pay the cost imposed by that ability), rather than promptly, and the remedy for the Missed Trigger infraction, if any, will be dealt with at that time (I.P.G. 2.1; M.T.R. 4.5).
In sanctioned tournaments at Regular rules enforcement level, if a triggered ability with no optional effects (such as Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability) (see also C.R. 603.5) is forgotten, and a judge is called, a judge will generally "put the ability on the stack unless [they] think it would be too disruptive [and unless] significant decisions have been made based on the effect not happening" (J.A.R., "Common Issues").
In sanctioned tournaments at any rules enforcement level, a player need not "point out the existence of triggered abilities they do not control" (M.T.R. 4.5).
EDIT (Apr. 8): Added text after I got confirmation from Magic Policy chat that this is valid.
EDIT (May 22): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Nov. 24, 2020): Struck out certain text for correctness; "[Do something]. If you...", doesn't necessarily express a choice.
Thank you for your answers.
If opp misses trigger, draws, casts his stuff and uses all his mana, what should be the decision if I remind about trigger now? I heard because of "significant decisions have been made based on the effect not happening" the trigger will not pe put on the stack at all because he cant pay now.
Also is it legal to remind about trigger now if I knew he missed the trigger the moment he drew?
Under M.T.R. 4.5, in sanctioned tournaments, "[p]layers are expected to remember their own triggered abilities" (without more, I assume that means triggered abilities they control). See also this thread.
In a sanctioned tournament, if you point out that another player has forgotten a triggered ability they control, and notify a judge about it, then the judge will decide what to do about it and may follow the guidance given in I.P.G. or J.A.R. (depending on rules enforcement level) when doing so (M.T.R. 4.5, 1.8, 1.10, 1.12; I.P.G. 2.1; J.A.R., "Common Issues"). Note that the Ravnica Allegiance update has modified the policy for forgetting triggered abilities only for certain triggered abilities (including Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability) and only for sanctioned tournaments at Competitive or Professional rules enforcement level.
Thank you for your answers.
If opp misses trigger, draws, casts his stuff and uses all his mana, what should be the decision if I remind about trigger now? I heard because of "significant decisions have been made based on the effect not happening" the trigger will not pe put on the stack at all because he cant pay now.
Also is it legal to remind about trigger now if I knew he missed the trigger the moment he drew?
At Regular, the judge will determine if it goes onto the stack. At Comp and Pro REL, you, as the opponent, will generally get to choose whether to put the trigger on the stack at that time or not at all. If you choose to put it onto the stack at a time when they "happen" to be tapped out, that is your right to call out the missed trigger at that point. Note that you need to catch it before your upkeep; you can't wait multiple turns to try to find a time when they don't have the mana to pay for it. The comment about significant things happening based on the trigger not being remembered applies at Regular REL for this case; there is more power in the opponent's hands at Comp and Pro.
Im not sure if waiting till opp taps out can be considered cheating
You dont call out a trigger, this can be considered as breaking the rules of the game
You do this intentionally
You do this to gain an advantage - to put it on the stack when opponent will be tapped out thus winning the game (vs him paying for pact)
Yes I know it is ok to not call opp's trigger
But this situation is different from just not calling a trigger
Im not sure if waiting till opp taps out can be considered cheating
You dont call out a trigger, this can be considered as breaking the rules of the game
You do this intentionally
You do this to gain an advantage - to put it on the stack when opponent will be tapped out thus winning the game (vs him paying for pact)
Yes I know it is ok to not call opp's trigger
But this situation is different from just not calling a trigger
So the question is whether a player in a sanctioned tournament can point out a forgotten triggered ability controlled by an opponent at some time later in the game, rather than promptly, and have it added to the stack at that time.
Note that in sanctioned tournaments at Competitive or Professional rules enforcement level—
"[p]layers may not cause triggered abilities controlled by an opponent to be missed by taking game actions or otherwise prematurely advancing the game" (I.P.G. 2.1, "Philosophy"), and
if a triggered ability was forgotten and either "was missed prior to the current phase in the previous turn" or "created an effect whose duration has already expired", it's not added to the stack (I.P.G. 2.1, "Additional Remedy").
In a sanctioned tournament, if you point out that a player forgets a triggered ability in your match, no matter when you do so, you should notify a judge about it (M.T.R. 4.5; under M.T.R. 1.10, players are responsible for "[c]alling attention to any rules or policy infraction they notice in their matches"). In general, however, while playing in such a tournament, even if you know that another player has forgotten Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability, you can point out that fact later in the turn (e.g., when they appear unable to pay the cost imposed by that ability), rather than promptly, and the remedy for the Missed Trigger infraction, if any, will be dealt with at that time (I.P.G. 2.1; M.T.R. 4.5).
EDIT (Apr. 8): Added text after I got confirmation from Magic Policy chat that this is valid.
If my opp draws a card to help him pay for trigger or to gain information what lands is better to use for trigger then this definitely a cheating
Manipulating trigger's timing is cheating in this case
And this resembles situation when you wait good moment to put opp's trigger on the stack
What would you expect to do in this case as the opponent? Let's say they did forget their trigger and you noticed in their 2nd Main Phase. You did not intentionally wait, you were not trying to game the rules in such a way as to force them to lose; you legitimately did not notice until that point that they forgot their trigger. What do you feel should happen at that point? Does the entire turn back up (along with all actions taken up to that point)? Do you get investigated to see if *you* are trying to cheat? Should the Pact player now not be responsible for their "lose the game" trigger just because *you* didn't remember it?
As the opponent? Listen to judge's ruling.
As for what I feel should happen, I'm ok with official policy in every REL
Sorry I didnt get "Should the Pact player now not be responsible for their "lose the game" trigger just because *you* didn't remember it"
As for my case I convinced myself its cheating
I choose timing for trigger, thats not what rules say
I'm aware of this, I do this intentionally and I do this to gain advantage
So yes investigation should be considered
A few years ago, the policy around Missed Triggers changed. It used to be that you had to remind your opponent of their triggers. Current policy is that you don't have to.
The guidelines for Missed Triggers (IPG 2.1) are clear on the two main points here:
1. An opponent isn't required to point out missed triggers.
2. If a trigger *is* pointed out, and it's been less than a turn, the opponent can choose to put it on the stack.
It isn't cheating to take advantage of a better understanding of tournament policy to get your opponent here. You are fully within your rights to do this, for example:
AP casts Summoner's Pact, then passes turn.
NAP does stuff, then passes back.
AP draws for turn.
AP taps out and puts a spell on the stack.
NAP says "Hey, by the way, you didn't pay for your trigger."
NAP can choose to put the trigger on the stack now, and the odds of AP being able to pay for the trigger are very very slim.
This is unequivocally not cheating. If you feel that this is unsporting (and note that this is lowercase unsporting, not the infraction Unsporting Conduct), you are welcome to remind your opponent at the appropriate time before they take any further actions.
Edit: I would like to be very clear that triggers are the only place you can do this. For example, you can't let your opponent forget a replacement effect (like not get a zombie from Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet) or put something in the wrong zone (like something gets Path to Exiled and someone puts it in the graveyard).
In general, while playing in a tournament at Competitive or Professional rules enforcement level, even if you know that another player has forgotten a triggered ability, you can point out that fact later in the turn (e.g., when they appear unable to pay the cost imposed in the case of Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability), rather than promptly (I.P.G. 2.1; M.T.R. 4.5). I have confirmed a similar answer in the Magic Policy chat.
If you point out that fact this way, the remedy for the Missed Trigger infraction, if any, will be dealt with at that time (I.P.G. 2.1), so that with some exceptions that don't apply to Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability, "the opponent [of that player] chooses whether the triggered ability is added to the stack" (I.P.G. 2.1).
Spam warning issued. You are reviving a concluded thread from 20 days ago to repeat things that have already been said. -MadMage
Is it legal to wait until he taps all mana to pay for different things and then remind about missed trigger?
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
(such as Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability)that "specifies a default action associated with a choice made by the controller (usually 'If you don't ...' or '... unless')" (text which formerly appeared in I.P.G. 2.1 before the Ravnica Allegiance update), then the default action (here, losing the game) is no longer automatically performed. Rather, in general, "the opponent chooses whether the triggered ability is added to the stack. If it is, it's inserted at the appropriate place on the stack if possible or on the bottom of the stack" (text retained in that update) (I.P.G. 2.1). See "Policy Changes for Ravnica Allegiance" for more information. See also this thread. In general, however, while playing in such a tournament, even if you know that another player has forgotten Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability, you can point out that fact later in the turn (e.g., when they appear unable to pay the cost imposed by that ability), rather than promptly, and the remedy for the Missed Trigger infraction, if any, will be dealt with at that time (I.P.G. 2.1; M.T.R. 4.5).In sanctioned tournaments at Regular rules enforcement level, if a triggered ability with no optional effects (such as Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability) (see also C.R. 603.5) is forgotten, and a judge is called, a judge will generally "put the ability on the stack unless [they] think it would be too disruptive [and unless] significant decisions have been made based on the effect not happening" (J.A.R., "Common Issues").
In sanctioned tournaments at any rules enforcement level, a player need not "point out the existence of triggered abilities they do not control" (M.T.R. 4.5).
EDIT (Apr. 8): Added text after I got confirmation from Magic Policy chat that this is valid.
EDIT (May 22): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Nov. 24, 2020): Struck out certain text for correctness; "[Do something]. If you...", doesn't necessarily express a choice.
If opp misses trigger, draws, casts his stuff and uses all his mana, what should be the decision if I remind about trigger now? I heard because of "significant decisions have been made based on the effect not happening" the trigger will not pe put on the stack at all because he cant pay now.
Also is it legal to remind about trigger now if I knew he missed the trigger the moment he drew?
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
In a sanctioned tournament, if you point out that another player has forgotten a triggered ability they control, and notify a judge about it, then the judge will decide what to do about it and may follow the guidance given in I.P.G. or J.A.R. (depending on rules enforcement level) when doing so (M.T.R. 4.5, 1.8, 1.10, 1.12; I.P.G. 2.1; J.A.R., "Common Issues"). Note that the Ravnica Allegiance update has modified the policy for forgetting triggered abilities only for certain triggered abilities
(including Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability)and only for sanctioned tournaments at Competitive or Professional rules enforcement level.EDIT (Nov. 24, 2020): Correctness edit.
You dont call out a trigger, this can be considered as breaking the rules of the game
You do this intentionally
You do this to gain an advantage - to put it on the stack when opponent will be tapped out thus winning the game (vs him paying for pact)
Yes I know it is ok to not call opp's trigger
But this situation is different from just not calling a trigger
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Note that in sanctioned tournaments at Competitive or Professional rules enforcement level—
In a sanctioned tournament, if you point out that a player forgets a triggered ability in your match, no matter when you do so, you should notify a judge about it (M.T.R. 4.5; under M.T.R. 1.10, players are responsible for "[c]alling attention to any rules or policy infraction they notice in their matches").In general, however, while playing in such a tournament, even if you know that another player has forgotten Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability, you can point out that fact later in the turn (e.g., when they appear unable to pay the cost imposed by that ability), rather than promptly, and the remedy for the Missed Trigger infraction, if any, will be dealt with at that time (I.P.G. 2.1; M.T.R. 4.5).
EDIT (Apr. 8): Added text after I got confirmation from Magic Policy chat that this is valid.
Manipulating trigger's timing is cheating in this case
And this resembles situation when you wait good moment to put opp's trigger on the stack
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
As for what I feel should happen, I'm ok with official policy in every REL
Sorry I didnt get "Should the Pact player now not be responsible for their "lose the game" trigger just because *you* didn't remember it"
As for my case I convinced myself its cheating
I choose timing for trigger, thats not what rules say
I'm aware of this, I do this intentionally and I do this to gain advantage
So yes investigation should be considered
If I'm mistaken please point where
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
The guidelines for Missed Triggers (IPG 2.1) are clear on the two main points here:
1. An opponent isn't required to point out missed triggers.
2. If a trigger *is* pointed out, and it's been less than a turn, the opponent can choose to put it on the stack.
It isn't cheating to take advantage of a better understanding of tournament policy to get your opponent here. You are fully within your rights to do this, for example:
AP casts Summoner's Pact, then passes turn.
NAP does stuff, then passes back.
AP draws for turn.
AP taps out and puts a spell on the stack.
NAP says "Hey, by the way, you didn't pay for your trigger."
NAP can choose to put the trigger on the stack now, and the odds of AP being able to pay for the trigger are very very slim.
This is unequivocally not cheating. If you feel that this is unsporting (and note that this is lowercase unsporting, not the infraction Unsporting Conduct), you are welcome to remind your opponent at the appropriate time before they take any further actions.
Edit: I would like to be very clear that triggers are the only place you can do this. For example, you can't let your opponent forget a replacement effect (like not get a zombie from Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet) or put something in the wrong zone (like something gets Path to Exiled and someone puts it in the graveyard).
If you point out that fact this way, the remedy for the Missed Trigger infraction, if any, will be dealt with at that time (I.P.G. 2.1), so that with some exceptions that don't apply to Summoner's Pact's delayed triggered ability, "the opponent [of that player] chooses whether the triggered ability is added to the stack" (I.P.G. 2.1).
Spam warning issued. You are reviving a concluded thread from 20 days ago to repeat things that have already been said. -MadMage