Opponent has Necropotence but no threats in his whole deck to kill me or get rid of my permanents and he decides to do nothing on each of his turns
I have Lich's Mastery on the board but no threats in my whole deck to kill my opp either
I eventually deck myself by drawing cards for a turn but I dont die thanks to Mastery
Now I have 7 irrelevant cards in hand and my opp has 7 irrelevant cards in hand with 30 cards left in his library
And we start taking infinite turns
Is my opp required to take actions (use Necropotence) and eventually kill himself because he can do so?
No. You are both effectively in the same position: an effect is preventing you from losing. If your opponent gets to the point where they feel that not taking an action is the best course of action, then they are free to do so. Note this is different than *taking an action* that is keeping them alive. You are both doing the same thing and nothing says they have to actively kill themselves.
According to the MTR, this will just result in a draw:
If no players are involved in maintaining the loop, each player in turn order chooses a number of iterations to perform before they will take an action to break the loop or that they wish to take no action. If all players choose to take no action, the game is a draw. Otherwise, the game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number takes an action to break the loop.
You both choose to take no action so the game is a draw. The fact that the opponent *can* take an action is irrelevant; they are not forced to take an action, or make a choice, outside the loop in order to end the loop.
In a two-player game, if your opponent and you decide to do nothing but pass during their turn, then this is a loop since the same game state is reached multiple times. Thus your opponent has to take an action if possible (such as playing a card, activating an ability, or taking a special action) (C.R. 720.3, 114.1; M.T.R. 4.4). In a sanctioned tournament, this is a loop sustained by choices; the loop ends after a finite number of iterations and whether your opponent can play a card from their hand depends on what those cards are, so that "a judge may be needed to determine whether any choice is available that will not continue the loop" (M.T.R. 4.4, 4.1) But note here that there is such a choice, namely, choosing to activate Necropotence's activated ability (C.R. 116.1b).
EDIT: Struck out after comment 4 was posted. I meant to say 116.1b instead of 114.1b in the stricken out text.
In a two-player game, if your opponent and you decide to do nothing but pass during their turn, then this is a loop since the same game state is reached multiple times. Thus your opponent has to take an action if possible (such as playing a card, activating an ability, or taking a special action) (C.R. 720.3, 114.1; M.T.R. 4.4). In a sanctioned tournament, this is a loop sustained by choices; the loop ends after a finite number of iterations and whether your opponent can play a card from their hand depends on what those cards are, and "a judge may be needed to determine whether any choice is available that will not continue the loop" (M.T.R. 4.4) But note here that there is such a choice, namely, choosing to activate Necropotence's activated ability (C.R. 114.1b).
There are no choices here. The Necropotence player skips their draw step because they have to. The Mastery player doesn't lose because Mastery says they don't. The loop is not continuing because of choices being made or actions being taken. It just is because of the effects of cards that work on their own.
Since there is no choice or action actively being made to continue the loop, there is no choice or action they need to (or even can) make differently. They can continue to choose to make no action or choice which allows the loop to continue. If they do, and if the Mastery player does, the game is simply a draw.
The sections you quoted have to deal with a player actually making choices or performing actions to continue a loop. Not performing an action to break the loop is not the same thing as performing an action (or making a choice) to continue a loop since there are no such choices or actions in said scenario.
The example in 720.5 is pretty explicit in that a player would never need to end a loop just because they can if ending that loop would require a card, or a choice, that is outside the current loop. Since ending it requires activating an ability on Necropotence and that ability is not the reason the loop is continuing, they are not forced to activate the ability. They are free to continue to do nothing.
As for the judge needing to determine if such an action or choice could be made is meant mainly for a player who continues to discard Nexus of Fate over and over again (though there may be a less common scenario that applies to). A judge would be needed because the opponent obviously doesn't know what the rest of their hand is and nothing compels the Nexus player to reveal their hand. Thus the judge determines that. Again, that doesn't apply here.
Rule 720.3 doesn't apply since neither player is performing an action.
Also, rule 114.1 (and all subsets) deal with targeting. I am not sure which rule you meant to call out, but I assume it is not that one.
I think rules involved are inconsistent with discarding Nexus of Fate with Lich's Mastery on the other side ruling
Both players (Nexus and Necropotence) make a choice (and I'm using choice in general sense, not as mtg term) but one is forced to end the loop and the other is not
What choice is the Necropotence player making to continue the loop? That is, what are they *actively* doing to ensure the loop continues? Abstaining from making a possible choice, or abstaining from performing an action, is not the same thing as actually performing an action or making a choice. "Choosing to do nothing" is not the same same thing as "choosing to do something".
In the Nexus of Fate example, they are making a choice: they choose what to discard. The loop will not continue without that choice being made. Any other choice and the loop ends. Since Necropotence requires no choices for the loop to continue, there is nothing compelling the playing to make a choice other than "nothing" in order to end the loop.
"Choosing to do nothing" is not the same same thing as "choosing to do something".
They are same from game theory point of view.
Game in state A, player chooses a move to progress the game to either state B or state C. He has two moves available and he has to choose one of them. Same situations.
If this game was played in mtg arena, game engine wouldnt fast forward like you cant do anything, it would stop at every step because player would have a choice: use Necropotence ability or pass
"Choosing to do nothing" is not the same same thing as "choosing to do something".
They are same from game theory point of view.
Game in state A, player chooses a move to progress the game to either state B or state C. He has two moves available and he has to choose one of them. Same situations.
If this game was played in mtg arena, game engine wouldnt fast forward like you cant do anything, it would stop at every step because player would have a choice: use Necropotence ability or pass
True.
But the unstated premise is that passing priority, (or declining to do something optional in an effect) is not considered a choice for the loop rules.
Also, I don't know of any time when a player could be forced to do something using a spell from a hidden zone.
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"Choosing to do nothing" is not the same same thing as "choosing to do something".
It is still choosing, and "choice" is just a noun form of choose, which is synonymous to "choosing".
But the unstated premise is that passing priority, (or declining to do something optional in an effect) is not considered a choice for the loop rules.
I don't see where this assertion comes from.
Also, I don't know of any time when a player could be forced to do something using a spell from a hidden zone.
I'm not sure what exactly you mean, but MTR4.4 says
If the choice involves hidden information, a judge may be needed to determine whether any choice is available that will not continue the loop.
Therefore you can call a judge to have him confirm Lich's Mastery player can't do make a "choice ... that will not continue the loop" while Necropotence player (obviously) can.
Therefore you can call a judge to have him confirm Lich's Mastery player can't do make a "choice ... that will not continue the loop" while Necropotence player (obviously) can.
Neither player has relevant hidden information that can break this loop, because any hidden information involved would basically be "cast a spell to remove one or both of the enchantments," and that's literally never a thing we're going to force a player to do.
A player isn't required to activate Necropotence for the same reason they aren't required to use Seal of Cleansing to blow up an artifact that's enabling a loop:
Quote from Comprehensive Rules »
720.5. No player can be forced to perform an action that would end a loop other than actions called for by objects involved in the loop.
I have Lich's Mastery on the board but no threats in my whole deck to kill my opp either
I eventually deck myself by drawing cards for a turn but I dont die thanks to Mastery
Now I have 7 irrelevant cards in hand and my opp has 7 irrelevant cards in hand with 30 cards left in his library
And we start taking infinite turns
Is my opp required to take actions (use Necropotence) and eventually kill himself because he can do so?
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
According to the MTR, this will just result in a draw:
In a two-player game, if your opponent and you decide to do nothing but pass during their turn, then this is a loop since the same game state is reached multiple times. Thus your opponent has to take an action if possible (such as playing a card, activating an ability, or taking a special action) (C.R. 720.3, 114.1; M.T.R. 4.4). In a sanctioned tournament, this is a loop sustained by choices; the loop ends after a finite number of iterations and whether your opponent can play a card from their hand depends on what those cards are, so that "a judge may be needed to determine whether any choice is available that will not continue the loop" (M.T.R. 4.4, 4.1) But note here that there is such a choice, namely, choosing to activate Necropotence's activated ability (C.R. 116.1b).EDIT: Struck out after comment 4 was posted. I meant to say 116.1b instead of 114.1b in the stricken out text.
Since there is no choice or action actively being made to continue the loop, there is no choice or action they need to (or even can) make differently. They can continue to choose to make no action or choice which allows the loop to continue. If they do, and if the Mastery player does, the game is simply a draw.
The sections you quoted have to deal with a player actually making choices or performing actions to continue a loop. Not performing an action to break the loop is not the same thing as performing an action (or making a choice) to continue a loop since there are no such choices or actions in said scenario.
The example in 720.5 is pretty explicit in that a player would never need to end a loop just because they can if ending that loop would require a card, or a choice, that is outside the current loop. Since ending it requires activating an ability on Necropotence and that ability is not the reason the loop is continuing, they are not forced to activate the ability. They are free to continue to do nothing.
As for the judge needing to determine if such an action or choice could be made is meant mainly for a player who continues to discard Nexus of Fate over and over again (though there may be a less common scenario that applies to). A judge would be needed because the opponent obviously doesn't know what the rest of their hand is and nothing compels the Nexus player to reveal their hand. Thus the judge determines that. Again, that doesn't apply here.
Rule 720.3 doesn't apply since neither player is performing an action.
Also, rule 114.1 (and all subsets) deal with targeting. I am not sure which rule you meant to call out, but I assume it is not that one.
Both players (Nexus and Necropotence) make a choice (and I'm using choice in general sense, not as mtg term) but one is forced to end the loop and the other is not
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
In the Nexus of Fate example, they are making a choice: they choose what to discard. The loop will not continue without that choice being made. Any other choice and the loop ends. Since Necropotence requires no choices for the loop to continue, there is nothing compelling the playing to make a choice other than "nothing" in order to end the loop.
Game in state A, player chooses a move to progress the game to either state B or state C. He has two moves available and he has to choose one of them. Same situations.
If this game was played in mtg arena, game engine wouldnt fast forward like you cant do anything, it would stop at every step because player would have a choice: use Necropotence ability or pass
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
True.
But the unstated premise is that passing priority, (or declining to do something optional in an effect) is not considered a choice for the loop rules.
Also, I don't know of any time when a player could be forced to do something using a spell from a hidden zone.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
I don't see where this assertion comes from.
I'm not sure what exactly you mean, but MTR4.4 says
Therefore you can call a judge to have him confirm Lich's Mastery player can't do make a "choice ... that will not continue the loop" while Necropotence player (obviously) can.
A player isn't required to activate Necropotence for the same reason they aren't required to use Seal of Cleansing to blow up an artifact that's enabling a loop: WizardMN's initial post in this thread is correct.