If a nonland permanent becomes a creature I.eInkmoth Nexus and has +1/+1 counters placed on it, does it retain those counters when it becomes a land again? If it does, what happens if it has it's toughness reduced to 0 with say a Toxic Deluge or it has -1/-1 counters placed on to the same effect? Does it go the the graveyard?
A permanent with counters of any kind (whether +1/+1 or otherwise) doesn't lose those counters merely because it was formerly a creature and stops being a creature. Inkmoth Nexus's effect making it (among other things) a "1/1 ... creature", as well as Toxic Deluge's effect, both last "until end of turn", and both will end simultaneously (C.R. 514.2). Moreover, a creature (even one that's not normally a creature) will go to the graveyard as a state-based action if its toughness is 0 or less (C.R. 704.5f; see also this thread).
Note that nothing in the rules says that noncreature permanents can't have +1/+1 counters (or any counters that modify power and toughness) on them merely because they're noncreature permanents (C.R. 122, especially C.R. 122.1 and 122.1a) — see Afiya Grove for an example and see also this thread.
EDIT: Correctness edit after comment 4 was posted.
EDIT (Jun. 21, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
Consider Llanowar Reborn for an example of a +1/+1 counter on a land that doesn't do anything. +1/+1 counters can exist on lands, they just won't do anything since there's no power/toughness to be boosted.
121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704.
Note that the counter-negation rule still applies to all permanents, though, not just creatures.
As an additional cost to cast this spell, pay X life.
All creatures get -X/-X until end of turn.
All creatures. Even if Nexus has a +1/+1 counter on it, that does not mean it has toughness or that it's a creature. Toxic Deluge will not do anything to something that's not a creature. So, assuming Nexus is a land and not a creature at the time (aka you didn't activate its ability that turn prior to your opponent casting Deluge) -- nothing happens, because Deluge applies to creatures and Nexus isn't one.
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
On the other hand, if Nexus is a creature (say, for instance, you activated it on your opponent's upkeep, and they cast Deluge in their main phase): then the above state-based action applies. Immediately following Deluge resolving, the game looks around, realizes that Nexus is a creature that now has <0 toughness, and destroys it, just how you'd expect it to do to any other 1/1 with a -1/-1 counter on it.
Now, here's a hypothetical scenario: you activate Inkmoth's ability, making it a 1/1 until end of turn. You control a couple of Glorious Anthems, meaning that Nexus is actually a 3/3 or something. Your opponent casts Black Sun's Zenith for 1, putting a -1/-1 counter on Nexus -- making it a 2/2. The turn ends, and Nexus reverts to being a land. Your opponent casts Cleanfall, destroying your Anthems. What happens?
121.1a A +X/+Y counter on a creature or on a creature card in a zone other than the battlefield, where X and Y are numbers, adds X to that object's power and Y to that object's toughness. Similarly, -X/-Y counters subtract from power and toughness. See rule 613.3.
Well, Nexus is a land with a -1/-1 counter on it. The counter doesn't just go away when Nexus stops being a creature; it just doesn't do anything, because Nexus isn't a creature and so the counter has no built-in effect on it (that is, the above rule only applies to creatures). And that's why, incidentally, a bunch of the rules in the comp rules regarding +1/+1 counters refer to 'permanent's with +1/+1 counters on them -- because you can't be sure it's a creature.
Note, though, that if you then chose to activate the ability and make Nexus a creature, the counter would suddenly have something to do again, Nexus would be a 0/0 creature, and it would die just as before. Note that the above extended example gets weirder if you use, eg, Giant Growth instead of Anthems, because I don't remember how end-of-turn effects work here (whether Nexus becomes a land or loses its toughness boost first) -- but luckily you didn't ask that and probably won't run into any time soon.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Note that the above extended example gets weirder if you use, eg, Giant Growth instead of Anthems, because I don't remember how end-of-turn effects work here (whether Nexus becomes a land or loses its toughness boost first) -- but luckily you didn't ask that and probably won't run into any time soon.
All until end of turn effects end simultaneously in the cleanup step. But even if they did so sequentially, what matters is that state based actions would not be checked in between, so all those effects would still end before the game could see anything that would need cleaning up.
The removal of marked damage and the end of temporary toughness boosts like Giant Growth actually are sequential, but as I said, that doesn't matter because state based actions are not checked in between.
The removal of marked damage and the end of temporary toughness boosts like Giant Growth actually are sequential,
Actually, they aren't.
514. Cleanup Step
514.1. First, if the active player’s hand contains more cards than their maximum hand size (normally
seven), they discard enough cards to reduce their hand size to that number. This turn-based action
doesn’t use the stack.
514.2. Second, the following actions happen simultaneously: all damage marked on permanents
(including phased-out permanents) is removed and all “until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end.
This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
Note, though, that if you then chose to activate the ability and make Nexus a creature, the counter would suddenly have something to do again, Nexus would be a 0/0 creature, and it would die just as before.
In this scenario, what happens if Necroskitter is on the battlefield under the control of an opponent of the player with Nexus? I'm assuming that the Nexus would return under that players control since skitter says "card" instead of "creature" though I'm not certain it would matter either way. Just curious
Note, though, that if you then chose to activate the ability and make Nexus a creature, the counter would suddenly have something to do again, Nexus would be a 0/0 creature, and it would die just as before.
In this scenario, what happens if Necroskitter is on the battlefield under the control of an opponent of the player with Nexus? I'm assuming that the Nexus would return under that players control since skitter says "card" instead of "creature" though I'm not certain it would matter either way. Just curious
Your assumption is correct. The Nexus would die and trigger being brought back to the field under the opponents control as an Inkmoth Nexus land that is not a creature. At least not until the opponent activated it.
Note, though, that if you then chose to activate the ability and make Nexus a creature, the counter would suddenly have something to do again, Nexus would be a 0/0 creature, and it would die just as before.
In this scenario, what happens if Necroskitter is on the battlefield under the control of an opponent of the player with Nexus? I'm assuming that the Nexus would return under that players control since skitter says "card" instead of "creature" though I'm not certain it would matter either way. Just curious
So, fun fact, anytime a card's text refers to something in a graveyard or other non-battlefield zone, it will always refer to that thing as a card or spell, as cards are only considered to be what they represent while actually on the battlefield. Consider how something like Arcane Adaptation refers to "creatures" when discussing something you control on the battlefield, but "creature spells" for (I believe) things you control on the stack, or "creature cards" for things not in play at all (hence the lack of the word "control"). In the later two cases, "creature" is the spell/card type, but until it's on the battlefield it's not actually considered a creature.
Also, abilities that trigger off of creature death only consider the last state of the object, not the intrinsic qualities of the card. A great example of this is Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker, which only reanimates a card if it died as a creature (ie a thing on the battlefield) with power 1 or less. A creature with a printed value of 2/2 that had a -1/-1 counter on it and then dies would die as a creature with power 1 or less, and thus would be brought back by Shirei. Similarly, a Mutavault in the same situation, or a Swamp that was turned into a creature by a Kormus Bell, would die as a 1/1 creature, and so the ability triggers and brings the card back, regardless of the printed values or normal types of the card. Alternatively a 1/1 creature with a +1/+1 counter on it would die as a 2/2 creature, and be an invalid target for Shirei.
So, fun fact, anytime a card's text refers to something in a graveyard or other non-battlefield zone, it will always refer to that thing as a card or spell, as cards are only considered to be what they represent while actually on the battlefield.
(…)
Also, abilities that trigger off of creature death only consider the last state of the object, not the intrinsic qualities of the card.
Both of these 'fun fact' are actual rules of the game:
109.2. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes a card type or subtype, but doesn’t include the word “card,” “spell,” “source,” or “scheme,” it means a permanent of that card type or subtype on the battlefield.
603.10a Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, (…)
613.1. The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. (…) Then all applicable continuous effects are applied (…)
Note that nothing in the rules says that noncreature permanents can't have +1/+1 counters (or any counters that modify power and toughness) on them merely because they're noncreature permanents (C.R. 122, especially C.R. 122.1 and 122.1a) — see Afiya Grove for an example and see also this thread.
EDIT: Correctness edit after comment 4 was posted.
EDIT (Jun. 21, 2021): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
Note that the counter-negation rule still applies to all permanents, though, not just creatures.
All creatures. Even if Nexus has a +1/+1 counter on it, that does not mean it has toughness or that it's a creature. Toxic Deluge will not do anything to something that's not a creature. So, assuming Nexus is a land and not a creature at the time (aka you didn't activate its ability that turn prior to your opponent casting Deluge) -- nothing happens, because Deluge applies to creatures and Nexus isn't one.
On the other hand, if Nexus is a creature (say, for instance, you activated it on your opponent's upkeep, and they cast Deluge in their main phase): then the above state-based action applies. Immediately following Deluge resolving, the game looks around, realizes that Nexus is a creature that now has <0 toughness, and destroys it, just how you'd expect it to do to any other 1/1 with a -1/-1 counter on it.
Now, here's a hypothetical scenario: you activate Inkmoth's ability, making it a 1/1 until end of turn. You control a couple of Glorious Anthems, meaning that Nexus is actually a 3/3 or something. Your opponent casts Black Sun's Zenith for 1, putting a -1/-1 counter on Nexus -- making it a 2/2. The turn ends, and Nexus reverts to being a land. Your opponent casts Cleanfall, destroying your Anthems. What happens?
Well, Nexus is a land with a -1/-1 counter on it. The counter doesn't just go away when Nexus stops being a creature; it just doesn't do anything, because Nexus isn't a creature and so the counter has no built-in effect on it (that is, the above rule only applies to creatures). And that's why, incidentally, a bunch of the rules in the comp rules regarding +1/+1 counters refer to 'permanent's with +1/+1 counters on them -- because you can't be sure it's a creature.
Note, though, that if you then chose to activate the ability and make Nexus a creature, the counter would suddenly have something to do again, Nexus would be a 0/0 creature, and it would die just as before. Note that the above extended example gets weirder if you use, eg, Giant Growth instead of Anthems, because I don't remember how end-of-turn effects work here (whether Nexus becomes a land or loses its toughness boost first) -- but luckily you didn't ask that and probably won't run into any time soon.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
All until end of turn effects end simultaneously in the cleanup step. But even if they did so sequentially, what matters is that state based actions would not be checked in between, so all those effects would still end before the game could see anything that would need cleaning up.
The removal of marked damage and the end of temporary toughness boosts like Giant Growth actually are sequential, but as I said, that doesn't matter because state based actions are not checked in between.
Former Rules Advisor
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(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
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Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
In this scenario, what happens if Necroskitter is on the battlefield under the control of an opponent of the player with Nexus? I'm assuming that the Nexus would return under that players control since skitter says "card" instead of "creature" though I'm not certain it would matter either way. Just curious
Your assumption is correct. The Nexus would die and trigger being brought back to the field under the opponents control as an Inkmoth Nexus land that is not a creature. At least not until the opponent activated it.
So, fun fact, anytime a card's text refers to something in a graveyard or other non-battlefield zone, it will always refer to that thing as a card or spell, as cards are only considered to be what they represent while actually on the battlefield. Consider how something like Arcane Adaptation refers to "creatures" when discussing something you control on the battlefield, but "creature spells" for (I believe) things you control on the stack, or "creature cards" for things not in play at all (hence the lack of the word "control"). In the later two cases, "creature" is the spell/card type, but until it's on the battlefield it's not actually considered a creature.
Also, abilities that trigger off of creature death only consider the last state of the object, not the intrinsic qualities of the card. A great example of this is Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker, which only reanimates a card if it died as a creature (ie a thing on the battlefield) with power 1 or less. A creature with a printed value of 2/2 that had a -1/-1 counter on it and then dies would die as a creature with power 1 or less, and thus would be brought back by Shirei. Similarly, a Mutavault in the same situation, or a Swamp that was turned into a creature by a Kormus Bell, would die as a 1/1 creature, and so the ability triggers and brings the card back, regardless of the printed values or normal types of the card. Alternatively a 1/1 creature with a +1/+1 counter on it would die as a 2/2 creature, and be an invalid target for Shirei.
603.10a Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, (…)
613.1. The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. (…) Then all applicable continuous effects are applied (…)
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules