I am wondering about the ruling we should apply in the following situation :
I have 1 Gaea's Blessing in my deck, and my opponent sets up a combo allowing them to mill my entire library little by little, at any time (let's say they can produce as much mana as they want, and loop Petals of Insight by returning it to hand + splice Dampen Thought into Petals, but I'm interested in any other kind of mill combo like Grindstone+Painter's Servant if the answer is different).
What I was told from now is that they can play the combo and mill me until we find the Gaea's Blessing, then we shuffle everything back and they can't play the combo again, because there is no finite and determined loop that would place Gaea's Blessing in the last position of the library and the rest into the graveyard.
Now, my question is: what does it exactly mean? They can't play the combo again at that moment, but can they try it later?
- Can they at least mill me again just to put 1 or 2 specific cards into my graveyard and stop the loop? (my guess would be no...)
- Can they try it again every turn, hoping I drew my Gaea's Blessing?
- What if they have a solution to Gaea's Blessing's shuffle effect later in the game (something in hand Faerie Macabre, or something on the battlefield Wheel of Sun and Moon)?
Combos that seek to move all cards from a library into the graveyard generally work by resolving more than one spell or ability at a time — which means that abilities such as Gaea's Blessing's last ability can "interrupt" that combo. For such combos, in general, any shortcut that relies on the order of cards in a library after it's shuffled is not allowed (the Magic: The Gathering Tournament Rules, which apply to sanctioned tournaments, clarify that such purported shortcuts include "loops that rely on decision trees, probability or mathematical convergence") (M.T.R. 4.4; C.R. 720.2a). This includes moving cards from a library into a graveyard until specific cards are moved there this way. Note that as to your second question, whether a player can "try it again every turn", M.T.R. 4.4 (which applies to sanctioned tournaments) says that "[o]nce a loop has been shortcut, it may not be restarted until the game has changed in a relevant way" (see also C.R. 720.2c) (but whether the "game has changed in a relevant way" in a particular case is not detailed by the Magic: The Gathering Tournament Rules).
However, if the combo does all the moving in one spell or ability, such as Grindstone while Painter's Servant is on the battlefield, any abilities that trigger from the event (such as Gaea's Blessing's last ability) will wait to go on the stack until after the spell or ability finishes resolving (C.R. 608.2c, 116.2b, 116.5). If a replacement effect somehow keeps cards in the library while that spell or ability is resolving (e.g., with Wheel of Sun and Moon), this can, in certain circumstances, result in a loop with only mandatory actions, so that the game ends in a draw for a two-player game (C.R. 104.4b, 720.4). See also this thread.
EDIT: Clarification after comment 6 was posted.
EDIT (Jan. 27, 2020; Jan. 28, 2020): Edited.
Thank you Peter, so if I try to apply the rules you quoted:
- Can we consider that the player drawing cards doesn't mean the game has "changed in a relevant way"? Which means if I draw my Gaea's Blessing and my opponent can't be sure, he can't combo again.
- Can we consider that if I play my Gaea's Blessing from hand, now the game has "changed in a relevant way"?
- If they see it in my hand by playing Gitaxian Probe, is it the same or because hand is a hidden/private zone (can't remember the term), the game still considers he doesn't know it?
To be clear, I'm not just asking for fun, all of this can happen in my real life (how exciting!) and I would like to be able to have a solution to the problem before it happens.
EDIT : I forgot the last one : if my opponent draws a solution to exile Gaea's blessing in response, he can combo off again at that moment (but only if he drew that - or at least something that could unlock the situation)?
Two consecutive posts merged. When you have the last post in a thread, it's preferable that you edit said last post, marking your edit in some way, rather than making a new post. Also, here, merging your posts will make it more practical for me to quote and answer you. -MadMage
As far as I know, there is no rule about what constitutes a meaningful change, so it's up to the judge. I'd say if there is a possibility that Gaea's Blessing isn't in the library now, then it is indeed meaningful.
Thank you Peter, so if I try to apply the rules you quoted:
- Can we consider that the player drawing cards doesn't mean the game has "changed in a relevant way"? Which means if I draw my Gaea's Blessing and my opponent can't be sure, he can't combo again.
No, I disagree with peteroupc here if it is what he is suggesting, I'd say your opponent could combo again because of the mere possibility of you drawing your Blessing. But revealing your hand, showing you didn't draw the Blessing, would prevent that waste of time for everyone.
- Can we consider that if I play my Gaea's Blessing from hand, now the game has "changed in a relevant way"?
- If they see it in my hand by playing Gitaxian Probe, is it the same or because hand is a hidden/private zone (can't remember the term), the game still considers he doesn't know it?
The game has certainly changed in a meaningful way in both of those cases.
To be clear, I'm not just asking for fun, all of this can happen in my real life (how exciting!) and I would like to be able to have a solution to the problem before it happens.
EDIT : I forgot the last one : if my opponent draws a solution to exile Gaea's blessing in response, he can combo off again at that moment (but only if he drew that - or at least something that could unlock the situation)?
Yes, he certainly can.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I am wondering about the ruling we should apply in the following situation :
I have 1 Gaea's Blessing in my deck, and my opponent sets up a combo allowing them to mill my entire library little by little, at any time (let's say they can produce as much mana as they want, and loop Petals of Insight by returning it to hand + splice Dampen Thought into Petals, but I'm interested in any other kind of mill combo like Grindstone+Painter's Servant if the answer is different).
What I was told from now is that they can play the combo and mill me until we find the Gaea's Blessing, then we shuffle everything back and they can't play the combo again, because there is no finite and determined loop that would place Gaea's Blessing in the last position of the library and the rest into the graveyard.
Now, my question is: what does it exactly mean? They can't play the combo again at that moment, but can they try it later?
- Can they at least mill me again just to put 1 or 2 specific cards into my graveyard and stop the loop? (my guess would be no...)
- Can they try it again every turn, hoping I drew my Gaea's Blessing?
- What if they have a solution to Gaea's Blessing's shuffle effect later in the game (something in hand Faerie Macabre, or something on the battlefield Wheel of Sun and Moon)?
Thanks very much
Manu
However, if the combo does all the moving in one spell or ability, such as Grindstone while Painter's Servant is on the battlefield, any abilities that trigger from the event (such as Gaea's Blessing's last ability) will wait to go on the stack until after the spell or ability finishes resolving (C.R. 608.2c, 116.2b, 116.5). If a replacement effect somehow keeps cards in the library while that spell or ability is resolving (e.g., with Wheel of Sun and Moon), this can, in certain circumstances, result in a loop with only mandatory actions, so that the game ends in a draw for a two-player game (C.R. 104.4b, 720.4). See also this thread.
EDIT: Clarification after comment 6 was posted.
EDIT (Jan. 27, 2020; Jan. 28, 2020): Edited.
- Can we consider that the player drawing cards doesn't mean the game has "changed in a relevant way"? Which means if I draw my Gaea's Blessing and my opponent can't be sure, he can't combo again.
- Can we consider that if I play my Gaea's Blessing from hand, now the game has "changed in a relevant way"?
- If they see it in my hand by playing Gitaxian Probe, is it the same or because hand is a hidden/private zone (can't remember the term), the game still considers he doesn't know it?
To be clear, I'm not just asking for fun, all of this can happen in my real life (how exciting!) and I would like to be able to have a solution to the problem before it happens.
EDIT : I forgot the last one : if my opponent draws a solution to exile Gaea's blessing in response, he can combo off again at that moment (but only if he drew that - or at least something that could unlock the situation)?
Two consecutive posts merged. When you have the last post in a thread, it's preferable that you edit said last post, marking your edit in some way, rather than making a new post. Also, here, merging your posts will make it more practical for me to quote and answer you. -MadMage
The game has certainly changed in a meaningful way in both of those cases.
Yes, he certainly can.