I'm asking about the part when you have 2 Amulet of Vigor in play and you play a land like Simic Growth Chamber and you can tap the land for mana 2 times while on the stack before bouncing a land. I don't see how that's legal when the land enter's the battlefield once.
Please help me to understand this one, I feel this is as sort of BS and should be fixed if it's true. Such as sacking the Mogg Fanatic while damage is on the stack before it's killed.
When the SGC enters the battlefield both Amulets trigger as well as the Chamber itself. Those triggers go on the stack and resolve individually. Since they are all controlled by the same player, that player gets to choose their order on the stack. So he can put both untap triggers above the bounce trigger. After the first untap trigger has resolved, players get priority to do stuff before the next object can resolve. So the controller of the Chamber can now tap it for mana because it was untapped by the first resolving trigger. Eventually the second trigger will resolve and the Chamber is once again untapped and can thus be tapped for mana again. Even later the bounce trigger will eventually resolve and return a land to its owner's hand.
Sorry, I don't see how a player can untapped the same land twice when it enters the battlefield once. Amulet of Vigor says "Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield tapped..." Even on the stack, the land don't enter the battlefield twice and tapping a land for mana needs to be in play so therefore when the second Amulet on the stack sees the land, it should see that the land was already in play and that the owner has tapped it for mana.
Sorry, I saw this combo played off as some awesome teck on youtube yesterday and my mind was blown. I need to understand how the second Amulet can assume that the land in play came into play tapped and not see that the land was altered from it's original state (it comes into play tapped).
When the land enters, the game checks all objects wether they have any triggered abilities matching that event. All objects that do have such an ability trigger. Since there are two Amulets, meaning two objects with an appropriate ability (actually three, since the land itself also has an appropriate ability), you get two triggers. They both go on the stack at the same time, neither one waits for the other to do anything. So now you have two triggers on the stack, each one waiting to resolve and do its thing, in this case to untap the land. They don't care about wether the land untaps before they resolve or how often that status changes before the trigger can resolve. All that matters is, that the land is tapped at the time the trigger resolves, and then it gets untapped.
I think I see your confusion. The second Amulet trigger doesn't look at whether the land is still tapped or was ever untapped.
"Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield tapped and under your control, untap it."
For additional clarification, here's the official note on Amulet:
"If you control more than one Amulet of Vigor, each Amulet’s ability triggers when a permanent enters the battlefield tapped and under your control. The first ability that resolves will untap that permanent. If the permanent somehow becomes tapped again before the next ability resolves, the next ability will untap it as well (and so on)."
When the land enters, the game checks all objects wether they have any triggered abilities matching that event. All objects that do have such an ability trigger. Since there are two Amulets, meaning two objects with an appropriate ability (actually three, since the land itself also has an appropriate ability), you get two triggers. They both go on the stack at the same time, neither one waits for the other to do anything. So now you have two triggers on the stack, each one waiting to resolve and do its thing, in this case to untap the land. They don't care about wether the land untaps before they resolve or how often that status changes before the trigger can resolve. All that matters is, that the land is tapped at the time the trigger resolves, and then it gets untapped.
Thanks, I didn't see it like that and it helps. I had not played against this combo or used this combo yet, but I want to make sure that I'm not getting BSed or that if I do play the combo that I could explain it correctly to my opponent.
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Please help me to understand this one, I feel this is as sort of BS and should be fixed if it's true. Such as sacking the Mogg Fanatic while damage is on the stack before it's killed.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Sorry, I saw this combo played off as some awesome teck on youtube yesterday and my mind was blown. I need to understand how the second Amulet can assume that the land in play came into play tapped and not see that the land was altered from it's original state (it comes into play tapped).
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
"Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield tapped and under your control, untap it."
For additional clarification, here's the official note on Amulet:
"If you control more than one Amulet of Vigor, each Amulet’s ability triggers when a permanent enters the battlefield tapped and under your control. The first ability that resolves will untap that permanent. If the permanent somehow becomes tapped again before the next ability resolves, the next ability will untap it as well (and so on)."
Thanks, I didn't see it like that and it helps. I had not played against this combo or used this combo yet, but I want to make sure that I'm not getting BSed or that if I do play the combo that I could explain it correctly to my opponent.