As part of casting a spell. You can do this with most other mana-producing abilities, because they're a special category called just "mana abilities", but you need priority to activate ordinary abilities.
Lion's Eye is often used in Storm in Legacy, so let's just use Infernal Tutor:
Let's say you want to cast Infernal Tutor. Normally, you can put the spell on the stack, produce mana, and spend that mana. The important thing here is that the Tutor is already on the stack when producing the mana. This is allowed within the rules specifically for mana abilities.
However, you cannot cast an Instant while in the middle of casting a spell. Since LED says you can only activate it when you could cast an Instant, you cannot activate it in the middle of casting the Tutor. So, players need to cast the Tutor with mana from somewhere else and then activate LED after it is cast to float 3 mana and discard their hand.
Another example is something like Wheel of Fortune. Say you have 1 land and an LED. You want to cast Wheel of Fortune. However, you are unable to use the mana from LED to do so. If you activate it when you can, before putting the Wheel on the stack, you end up discarding the Wheel. If you put the Wheel on the Stack, you can't pay the mana cost at all since LED says you can't activate its ability while in the middle of casting a spell or activating an ability.
OK, so you can use LED for mana if you activate it BEFORE casting a spell but not afterwards until the spell has resolved, is that it? So there are only a handful of instances where you would be affected by the limitation I take it?
OK, so you can use LED for mana if you activate it BEFORE casting a spell but not afterwards until the spell has resolved, is that it?
You can activate it when you get priority while the spell is on the stack (i.e., after you've paid for the spell but before it resolves). This still generally rules out using it for the cost of a spell that you cast from your hand. Edit: This was WizardMN's example with Infernal Tutor. The mana would then be spent on the spell card obtained that way (which was not in hand while activating LED).
So there are only a handful of instances where you would be affected by the limitation I take it?
605.3. Activating an activated mana ability follows the rules for activating any other activated ability (see rule 602.2), with the following exceptions:
605.3a A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever they have priority, whenever they are casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even if it’s in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability.
605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)
605.3c Once a player begins to activate a mana ability, that ability can’t be activated again until it has resolved.
Which raises the question: is there any card that requires (or at least, benefits from) activating mana abilities while in the process of casting?
If not, wouldn't it be simpler to always produce mana beforehand, and delete rule 601.2g?
601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (...)
Which raises the question: is there any card that requires (or at least, benefits from) activating mana abilities while in the process of casting?
If not, wouldn't it be simpler to always produce mana beforehand, and delete rule 601.2g?
601.2g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (...)
Wall of Roots with four counters on it already and a convoke spell or anything that sacrifices itself for mana and a convoke spell wall is just the only one that comes to mind that is actually tournament playable in a convoke deck already.
Well, for one, convoke/improvise style cards, or anything with additional/alternate costs, get weird rules-wise if you generally pay costs before casting. Since now you’d be doing part of the cost up front, and part while casting (since you can’t do them before casting, they’re usually illegal game operations without the card instructing it happens). It wouldn’t be a deal-beaker, but it would probably make alternative costs less intuitive than they currently are. Plus, I suspect new players would have to get constantly corrected about playing cards before tapping their mana, which feels pedantic and doesn’t add much except annoyance.
And if you mean making mana generation instant speed, with priority timing, that’s a whole other can of worms, with terrifying implications.
If not, wouldn't it be simpler to always produce mana beforehand, and delete rule 601.2g?
Originally, the rules did require obtaining mana before you started to cast or activate (both call "play" at the time) a spell or ability. One of the changes for Sixth Edition in 1999 allowed using mana abilities in the middle of things whenever you were asked to spend mana (for casting/activating or paying a cost on resolution).
The Sixth Edition rules letter at https://www.wizards.com/magic/advanced/6e/6e_letter.asp didn't mention any reason for that change, but I can't imagine whatever reason going away. (I seem to recall part of the motivation being players who already made a habit of playing that way.)
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
Wall of Roots with four counters on it already and a convoke spell or anything that sacrifices itself for mana and a convoke spell wall is just the only one that comes to mind that is actually tournament playable in a convoke deck already.
Wall of Roots is a good example, but sacrificing a permanent for mana isn't. (You have to produce mana before paying costs anyway.)
Scrap Trawler, Chromatic Star combo
This is a weird interaction and I wish it didn't exist.
Well, for one, convoke/improvise style cards, or anything with additional/alternate costs, get weird rules-wise if you generally pay costs before casting. Since now you’d be doing part of the cost up front, and part while casting
Activating mana abilities and paying mana are two different things. You can combine convoke and floating mana just fine.
The best example off the top of my head is cost changing effect (like affinity) or casting restriction (like legendary sorceries) and sacrificing things for mana.
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Let's say you want to cast Infernal Tutor. Normally, you can put the spell on the stack, produce mana, and spend that mana. The important thing here is that the Tutor is already on the stack when producing the mana. This is allowed within the rules specifically for mana abilities.
However, you cannot cast an Instant while in the middle of casting a spell. Since LED says you can only activate it when you could cast an Instant, you cannot activate it in the middle of casting the Tutor. So, players need to cast the Tutor with mana from somewhere else and then activate LED after it is cast to float 3 mana and discard their hand.
Another example is something like Wheel of Fortune. Say you have 1 land and an LED. You want to cast Wheel of Fortune. However, you are unable to use the mana from LED to do so. If you activate it when you can, before putting the Wheel on the stack, you end up discarding the Wheel. If you put the Wheel on the Stack, you can't pay the mana cost at all since LED says you can't activate its ability while in the middle of casting a spell or activating an ability.
Hopefully this makes sense.
OK, so you can use LED for mana if you activate it BEFORE casting a spell but not afterwards until the spell has resolved, is that it? So there are only a handful of instances where you would be affected by the limitation I take it?
You can activate it when you get priority while the spell is on the stack (i.e., after you've paid for the spell but before it resolves). This still generally rules out using it for the cost of a spell that you cast from your hand. Edit: This was WizardMN's example with Infernal Tutor. The mana would then be spent on the spell card obtained that way (which was not in hand while activating LED).
The text in red is ruled out by that restriction.
If not, wouldn't it be simpler to always produce mana beforehand, and delete rule 601.2g?
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
Wall of Roots with four counters on it already and a convoke spell or anything that sacrifices itself for mana and a convoke spell wall is just the only one that comes to mind that is actually tournament playable in a convoke deck already.
Scrap Trawler, Chromatic Star combo
And if you mean making mana generation instant speed, with priority timing, that’s a whole other can of worms, with terrifying implications.
The Sixth Edition rules letter at https://www.wizards.com/magic/advanced/6e/6e_letter.asp didn't mention any reason for that change, but I can't imagine whatever reason going away. (I seem to recall part of the motivation being players who already made a habit of playing that way.)
This is a weird interaction and I wish it didn't exist.
Activating mana abilities and paying mana are two different things. You can combine convoke and floating mana just fine.
The best example off the top of my head is cost changing effect (like affinity) or casting restriction (like legendary sorceries) and sacrificing things for mana.