This is more for “at the beginning of the next end step” type abilities. I’ll give a couple examples.
1. My opponent controls an Omnath, Locus of Mana. I attack with Identity Thief to copy and exile it until the end of the turn in order to empty that opponents mana pool. At the beginning of the end step, I activate Sundial of the Infinite to end the turn. Does Omnath stay exiled?
2. I have a Saheeli, the Gifted on the field and use her -7 ability to make a copy of each artifact I control. At the beginning of the end step, I activate Sundial of the Infinite. Do I keep those copies?
I know the Sundial says “this turn” and “until end of turn” effects end, but these are “at the beginning of the next end step” effects. From my understanding, those are delayed triggers and would use the stack. So if I use the Sundial, would it prevent those effects from triggering at the end step after the one in which I activated the Sundial since the trigger already occurred?
Sundial will not prevent those abilities from triggering, but it will remove them before they resolve, so none of these abilities will have its effect:
-Omnath won't return from exile.
-The tokens won't be exiled.
Sundial will not prevent those abilities from triggering, but it will remove them before they resolve, so none of these abilities will have its effect:
-Omnath won't return from exile.
-The tokens won't be exiled.
It would trigger again at the next end step after the Sundial was activated then?
Sundial will not prevent those abilities from triggering, but it will remove them before they resolve, so none of these abilities will have its effect:
-Omnath won't return from exile.
-The tokens won't be exiled.
It would trigger again at the next end step after the Sundial was activated then?
No. Both of those abilities create delayed triggered abilities that trigger once-at the beginning of the next end step. If you exile the abilities with Sundial of the Infinite during the end step, they would have already triggered during their "next end step", just not have resolved. Now, if you were to activate sundial before your end step for whatever reason, then, yes, the abilities would trigger at the following end step because they haven't had a chance to trigger yet.
No. It has already triggered once.
The ability does not say 'at the beginning of every next turn's end'.
Only the next one to come.
If you were to activate Sundial too soon, before it triggered (during Second Main Phase, for example), then yes, it would trigger next turn, since it hasn't triggered yet.
No. It has already triggered once.
The ability does not say 'at the beginning of every next turn's end'.
Only the next one to come.
If you were to activate Sundial too soon, before it triggered (during Second Main Phase, for example), then yes, it would trigger next turn, since it hasn't triggered yet.
Ah, I misunderstood when you said it wouldn’t prevent the trigger. That’s basically the answers I was looking for. Thanks for the help!
This is more for “at the beginning of the next end step” type abilities. I’ll give a couple examples.
1. My opponent controls an Omnath, Locus of Mana. I attack with Identity Thief to copy and exile it until the end of the turn in order to empty that opponents mana pool.
My question about this is which happens first? does the mana empty, or does Omnath, Locus of Mana return preventing the mana from emptying? Because mana empties at the end of each phase, but he also returns at the end of the said phase.
Sundial will not prevent those abilities from triggering, but it will remove them before they resolve, so none of these abilities will have its effect:
-Omnath won't return from exile.
Would this mean Omnath will remain in exile for the rest of the game? Or can he be returned to the command zone?
My question about this is which happens first? does the mana empty, or does Omnath, Locus of Mana return preventing the mana from emptying? Because mana empties at the end of each phase, but he also returns at the end of the said phase.
When Omnath is exiled with Identity Thief this way, it will happen during the declare attackers step and, since Omnath is no longer on the battlefield, the player who last controlled Omnath will generally lose any mana they have that goes unspent as the declare attackers step ends (C.R. 500.4). An effect that ends the turn during that step will also end that step in the process (C.R. 716.1d), so that that player will lose any unspent mana they have in that process (C.R. 500.4).
Would this mean Omnath will remain in exile for the rest of the game? Or can he be returned to the command zone?
If you end the turn with Sundial of the Infinite while delayed triggered abilities (such as from Identity Thief) are on the stack, each of those abilities will be exiled and will not trigger again unless it specifies a duration (such as "for the rest of the game", which is not the case for Identity Thief, though) (C.R. 603.7b, 716.1b). In this case, therefore, if you end the turn this way while Identity Thief's delayed triggered ability is on the stack, Omnath will remain exiled indefinitely. See also this thread, this thread, and this thread. (Note that a permanent can't be moved to the command zone instead of to exile without more; for example, in the traditional Commander variant in general, a commander that would be exiled from anywhere may be moved to the command zone insteadwas just exiled may be moved to the command zone as a state-based action if its owner so chooses [C.R. 903.9C.R. 903.9a].)
EDIT (Jun. 19; Jun. 23): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Jul. 2, 2020): Edited to conform to rule update with Core Set 2021.
Thank you for the quick reply and the clarity. I figured I was pretty good with most of the rules, but I always find things I'm never 100% on. Thank you again.
Thank you for the quick reply and the clarity. I figured I was pretty good with most of the rules, but I always find things I'm never 100% on. Thank you again.
I’m the same way. Even if I’m like 99.9% sure on things, a lot of times I make a post to double check so that I can use it as a reference if someone I’m playing with says otherwise. And if I’m wrong, then I just learn something new. For example, I made a Clone based deck revolving around Riku of Two Reflections and when I first started playing it, I hated hexproof until I found out Clones aren’t affected by it because it’s choose and not target.
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1. My opponent controls an Omnath, Locus of Mana. I attack with Identity Thief to copy and exile it until the end of the turn in order to empty that opponents mana pool. At the beginning of the end step, I activate Sundial of the Infinite to end the turn. Does Omnath stay exiled?
2. I have a Saheeli, the Gifted on the field and use her -7 ability to make a copy of each artifact I control. At the beginning of the end step, I activate Sundial of the Infinite. Do I keep those copies?
I know the Sundial says “this turn” and “until end of turn” effects end, but these are “at the beginning of the next end step” effects. From my understanding, those are delayed triggers and would use the stack. So if I use the Sundial, would it prevent those effects from triggering at the end step after the one in which I activated the Sundial since the trigger already occurred?
-Omnath won't return from exile.
-The tokens won't be exiled.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
It would trigger again at the next end step after the Sundial was activated then?
No. Both of those abilities create delayed triggered abilities that trigger once-at the beginning of the next end step. If you exile the abilities with Sundial of the Infinite during the end step, they would have already triggered during their "next end step", just not have resolved. Now, if you were to activate sundial before your end step for whatever reason, then, yes, the abilities would trigger at the following end step because they haven't had a chance to trigger yet.
The ability does not say 'at the beginning of every next turn's end'.
Only the next one to come.
If you were to activate Sundial too soon, before it triggered (during Second Main Phase, for example), then yes, it would trigger next turn, since it hasn't triggered yet.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
Ah, I misunderstood when you said it wouldn’t prevent the trigger. That’s basically the answers I was looking for. Thanks for the help!
My question about this is which happens first? does the mana empty, or does Omnath, Locus of Mana return preventing the mana from emptying? Because mana empties at the end of each phase, but he also returns at the end of the said phase.
Would this mean Omnath will remain in exile for the rest of the game? Or can he be returned to the command zone?
If you end the turn with Sundial of the Infinite while delayed triggered abilities (such as from Identity Thief) are on the stack, each of those abilities will be exiled and will not trigger again unless it specifies a duration (such as "for the rest of the game", which is not the case for Identity Thief, though) (C.R. 603.7b, 716.1b). In this case, therefore, if you end the turn this way while Identity Thief's delayed triggered ability is on the stack, Omnath will remain exiled indefinitely. See also this thread, this thread, and this thread. (Note that a permanent can't be moved to the command zone instead of to exile without more; for example, in the traditional Commander variant in general, a commander that
would be exiled from anywhere may be moved to the command zone insteadwas just exiled may be moved to the command zone as a state-based action if its owner so chooses [C.R. 903.9C.R. 903.9a].)EDIT (Jun. 19; Jun. 23): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Jul. 2, 2020): Edited to conform to rule update with Core Set 2021.
I’m the same way. Even if I’m like 99.9% sure on things, a lot of times I make a post to double check so that I can use it as a reference if someone I’m playing with says otherwise. And if I’m wrong, then I just learn something new. For example, I made a Clone based deck revolving around Riku of Two Reflections and when I first started playing it, I hated hexproof until I found out Clones aren’t affected by it because it’s choose and not target.