If I have a Cryptoplasm on the field and have a Progenitor Mimic enter as a copy of it, I can have the Progenitor Mimic copy become another creature and create the token afterwards, right? If I remember right, you pick the order your own upkeep abilities resolve.
But, if I use the ability of the original Cryptoplasm to copy the Progenitor Mimic version, could I use that copy to make tokens and change what it’s copying at my upkeep as well and still keep both the Mimic token ability as well as the change copy ability?
Let’s make that more complicated. If I toss out a Giant Adephage after this initial process and have the Progenitor Mimic/Cryptoplasm become a copy of it, attack with those copies to make more token copies and then have the newly created tokens become a copy of something else or do those tokens not retain the copy at upkeep effect? It might be confusing to read this cuz it’s a lot of stuff going on at once but this is one of those weird combinations that I feel needs some clarification before I can use it in an actual game.
Can I even have the copies made with attacking retain the Cryptoplasm copy ability?
If Cryptoplasm copies Giant Adephage and then attacks, the token will be created and will be a copy of Cryptoplasm-now-turned-into-Giant-Adephage-with-the-addition-of-Cryptoplasm's-upkeep-trigger. It's Cryptoplasm's ability will trigger each upkeep.
If I have a Cryptoplasm on the field and have a Progenitor Mimic enter as a copy of it, I can have the Progenitor Mimic copy become another creature and create the token afterwards, right? If I remember right, you pick the order your own upkeep abilities resolve.
1) You can stack the triggers so the Mimic becomes a copy of something else from the Cryptoplasm ability first. Then, when the trigger resolves to create a copy, you create a copy of whatever you copied (say, a Grizzly Bears) that also has the upkeep trigger to become something else. Neither the Mimic nor the token copy will have a trigger to create a token copy of itself anymore since the Cryptoplasm copy effect overwrites that.
2) If you use Cryptoplasm to copy the Mimic, it is too late to trigger the "create a token" ability that turn. But, next turn, you will have both trigger to create a token and both will trigger to copy something else. You can effectively double up on your tokens this way. Note, again, that once you copy something else with the Cryptoplasm ability, it loses the ability to make a token.
3) Both the Progenitor Mimic and the Cryptoplasm's ability are copied when something copies either one. So, if either of these are a Giant Adephage, they will create a token of the Adephage that also has both abilities of the Cryptoplasm and Mimic. Only the ability of the Cryptoplasm works however since the copies are tokens.
If Cryptoplasm copies Giant Adephage and then attacks, the token will be created and will be a copy of Cryptoplasm-now-turned-into-Giant-Adephage-with-the-addition-of-Cryptoplasm's-upkeep-trigger. It's Cryptoplasm's ability will trigger each upkeep.
Thank you for the answer! I’m trying to look for more weird broken combos with clones because it gets to be fun when you pull off some weird stuff. I’ve done a weird roundabout mana ramp before using manlands and clones.
It IS less forgiving with tokens. This is for a copy-based deck though. The tokens themselves don’t make copies, but they DO retain the upkeep ability. I can just toss out a Clone on the token and still get the copies at upkeep. It’s a good backup strategy if the original Progenitor Mimic gets destroyed.
1) You can stack the triggers so the Mimic becomes a copy of something else from the Cryptoplasm ability first. Then, when the trigger resolves to create a copy, you create a copy of whatever you copied (say, a Grizzly Bears) that also has the upkeep trigger to become something else. Neither the Mimic nor the token copy will have a trigger to create a token copy of itself anymore since the Cryptoplasm copy effect overwrites that.
2) If you use Cryptoplasm to copy the Mimic, it is too late to trigger the "create a token" ability that turn. But, next turn, you will have both trigger to create a token and both will trigger to copy something else. You can effectively double up on your tokens this way. Note, again, that once you copy something else with the Cryptoplasm ability, it loses the ability to make a token.
3) Both the Progenitor Mimic and the Cryptoplasm's ability are copied when something copies either one. So, if either of these are a Giant Adephage, they will create a token of the Adephage that also has both abilities of the Cryptoplasm and Mimic. Only the ability of the Cryptoplasm works however since the copies are tokens.
Thanks for the response! Sometimes things with clone effects can get kinda wonky so I was just looking for clarification to make sure things work how I thought and they do. Very helpful!
Note that Cryptoplasm still says "...you may have Cryptoplasm become a copy .... If you do, Cryptoplasm gains this ability." However, due to the Core Set 2019 update, the nature of that effect has become unclear — that is, whether the effect "If you do, Cryptoplasm gains this ability" has now become a layer 6 effect, not a layer 1 copy effect, so that the ability can't be copied by other copy effects such as found in Progenitor Mimic (C.R. 613.1f, 613.1a, 706.2).
Before Core Set 2019, effects that gave a creature an ability upon copying something (within the meaning of C.R. 706.9a) used the formulation "becomes a copy ... and gains...", "becomes a copy ..., except it gains...", and "may have [this creature] become a copy ...[.] If you do, [this creature] gains...". Now, the first two would both be worded "becomes a copy ..., except it has..." (compare Dimir Doppelganger's text as printed in Ravnica: City of Guilds with its Oracle text). The last was changed to "may have [this creature] become a copy ... except ... it has ..." in the case of Vesuvan Doppelganger, but was somehow retained in the case of Cryptoplasm (compare with Artisan of Forms).
A curious case is found in Heat Shimmer, whose text as printed in Lorwyn says "... a token ... that's a copy of target creature. It has [two abilities]", but whose Oracle text now says "...a token that's a copy of target creature, except it has [two abilities]". The former wording could be interpreted to include an effect that adds abilities within the scope of layer 6, rather than layer 1 (C.R. 613.1f, 613.1a; compare Heat Shimmer with Mimic Vat).
706.9b looks to be not expressive enough to fill the promise laid out by Shiffrin in the July update. The key is "except [it] has", to the exclusion of "except it gains" "and it has" and "and it gains"... but this language is not seen in 706.9. Big whiff, very strange.
Believe me, I'd love to personally rewrite the entirety of 706 just to flex, but the rule of 706.9 has an example that's the same as Cryptoplasm's text, but on Unstable Shapeshifter. The 706.9a Example, says with Unstable Shapeshifter, and therefore Cryptoplasm, the ability it gives itself to keep copying, is copiable. And if it's a copiable value, it's a characteristic set by a copy effect - Layer 1. When it's not layer 1, it's an exclusion of the copy effect, and it's not a copiable value.
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With Core Set 2020, Cryptoplasm's Oracle text was changed, in relevant part, to "...you may have Cryptoplasm become a copy ..., except it has this ability", making it clear that the ability mentioned in that text is part of Cryptoplasm's copiable values, so that it can be copied by other copy effects (C.R. 706.9a, 706.2).
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But, if I use the ability of the original Cryptoplasm to copy the Progenitor Mimic version, could I use that copy to make tokens and change what it’s copying at my upkeep as well and still keep both the Mimic token ability as well as the change copy ability?
Let’s make that more complicated. If I toss out a Giant Adephage after this initial process and have the Progenitor Mimic/Cryptoplasm become a copy of it, attack with those copies to make more token copies and then have the newly created tokens become a copy of something else or do those tokens not retain the copy at upkeep effect? It might be confusing to read this cuz it’s a lot of stuff going on at once but this is one of those weird combinations that I feel needs some clarification before I can use it in an actual game.
Can I even have the copies made with attacking retain the Cryptoplasm copy ability?
Progenitor Mimic is less forgiving with tokens.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
2) If you use Cryptoplasm to copy the Mimic, it is too late to trigger the "create a token" ability that turn. But, next turn, you will have both trigger to create a token and both will trigger to copy something else. You can effectively double up on your tokens this way. Note, again, that once you copy something else with the Cryptoplasm ability, it loses the ability to make a token.
3) Both the Progenitor Mimic and the Cryptoplasm's ability are copied when something copies either one. So, if either of these are a Giant Adephage, they will create a token of the Adephage that also has both abilities of the Cryptoplasm and Mimic. Only the ability of the Cryptoplasm works however since the copies are tokens.
Thank you for the answer! I’m trying to look for more weird broken combos with clones because it gets to be fun when you pull off some weird stuff. I’ve done a weird roundabout mana ramp before using manlands and clones.
It IS less forgiving with tokens. This is for a copy-based deck though. The tokens themselves don’t make copies, but they DO retain the upkeep ability. I can just toss out a Clone on the token and still get the copies at upkeep. It’s a good backup strategy if the original Progenitor Mimic gets destroyed.
Thanks for the response! Sometimes things with clone effects can get kinda wonky so I was just looking for clarification to make sure things work how I thought and they do. Very helpful!
Note that Cryptoplasm still says "...you may have Cryptoplasm become a copy .... If you do, Cryptoplasm gains this ability." However, due to the Core Set 2019 update, the nature of that effect has become unclear — that is, whether the effect "If you do, Cryptoplasm gains this ability" has now become a layer 6 effect, not a layer 1 copy effect, so that the ability can't be copied by other copy effects such as found in Progenitor Mimic (C.R. 613.1f, 613.1a, 706.2).Before Core Set 2019, effects that gave a creature an ability upon copying something (within the meaning of C.R. 706.9a) used the formulation "becomes a copy ... and gains...", "becomes a copy ..., except it gains...", and "may have [this creature] become a copy ...[.] If you do, [this creature] gains...". Now, the first two would both be worded "becomes a copy ..., except it has..." (compare Dimir Doppelganger's text as printed in Ravnica: City of Guilds with its Oracle text). The last was changed to "may have [this creature] become a copy ... except ... it has ..." in the case of Vesuvan Doppelganger
, but was somehow retained in the case of Cryptoplasm (compare with Artisan of Forms).A curious case is found in Heat Shimmer, whose text as printed in Lorwyn says "... a token ... that's a copy of target creature. It has [two abilities]", but whose Oracle text now says "...a token that's a copy of target creature, except it has [two abilities]". The former wording could be interpreted to include an effect that adds abilities within the scope of layer 6, rather than layer 1 (C.R. 613.1f, 613.1a; compare Heat Shimmer with Mimic Vat).
See also this thread.
EDIT (Jul. 9, 2019): Edited due to changes in Cryptoplasm's Oracle text with Core Set 2020.
Believe me, I'd love to personally rewrite the entirety of 706 just to flex, but the rule of 706.9 has an example that's the same as Cryptoplasm's text, but on Unstable Shapeshifter. The 706.9a Example, says with Unstable Shapeshifter, and therefore Cryptoplasm, the ability it gives itself to keep copying, is copiable. And if it's a copiable value, it's a characteristic set by a copy effect - Layer 1. When it's not layer 1, it's an exclusion of the copy effect, and it's not a copiable value.
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