If I use a Guildmage's Forum to cast my Athreos, God of Passage and I don't have any devotion (other than Athreos), does he enter with a +1/+1 counter? Same quesion (about the counters) applies to Opal Palace.
Some say yes due to "that (thing)" generally meaning "that card", and others say no because it isn't a creature when it enters and thus can't get a counter.
The abilities of the Gods that make them not creatures are not characteristic-defining abilities, so they follow the normal rule for applicability of static abilities: i.e., only while the object is on the battlefield. Athreos and the other Gods are always creature spells while they are spells.
And when Guildmage's Forum says "that creature", this isn't exclusive of objects based on their actual card types; it is merely an object defined earlier in the effect. However, the textual basis for this fact is lacking, to my knowledge.
Note also that there's no rule preventing +1/+1 counters from being put on noncreature permanents. They just will have no effect unless those permanents become creatures.
And when Guildmage's Forum says "that creature", this isn't exclusive of objects based on their actual card types; it is merely an object defined earlier in the effect. However, the textual basis for this fact is lacking, to my knowledge.
608.2i If an ability’s effect refers to a specific untargeted object that has been previously referred to by that ability’s cost or trigger condition, it still affects that object even if the object has changed characteristics.
Example: Wall of Tears says “Whenever Wall of Tears blocks a creature, return that creature to its owner’s hand at end of combat.” If Wall of Tears blocks a creature, then that creature ceases to be a creature before the triggered ability resolves, the permanent will still be returned to its owner’s hand.
But it's not a cost or trigger condition. Guildmage's Forum creates a replacement effect, conditionally on a certain spell being multicolored and creature and having a certain mana spent on it. There's no trigger condition and the spell isn't referenced in the cost.
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But it's not a cost or trigger condition. Guildmage's Forum creates a replacement effect, conditionally on a certain spell being multicolored and creature and having a certain mana spent on it. There's no trigger condition and the spell isn't referenced in the cost.
700.7. If an ability of an object uses a phrase such as “this [something]” to identify an object, where [something] is a characteristic, it is referring to that particular object, even if it isn’t the appropriate characteristic at the time.
Example: An ability reads “Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Destroy that creature at the beginning of the next end step.” The ability will destroy the object it gave +2/+2 to even if that object isn’t a creature at the beginning of the next end step.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
If I use a Guildmage's Forum to cast my Athreos, God of Passage and I don't have any devotion (other than Athreos), does he enter with a +1/+1 counter? Same quesion (about the counters) applies to Opal Palace.
Some say yes due to "that (thing)" generally meaning "that card", and others say no because it isn't a creature when it enters and thus can't get a counter.
Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
And when Guildmage's Forum says "that creature", this isn't exclusive of objects based on their actual card types; it is merely an object defined earlier in the effect. However, the textual basis for this fact is lacking, to my knowledge.
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I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Example: Wall of Tears says “Whenever Wall of Tears blocks a creature, return that creature to its owner’s hand at end of combat.” If Wall of Tears blocks a creature, then that creature ceases to be a creature before the triggered ability resolves, the permanent will still be returned to its owner’s hand.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
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That's why chaikov said "almost", I think.
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