120.8. If a spell or ability causes a card to be drawn while another spell is being cast, the drawn card is kept face down until that spell becomes cast (…)
Am I correct to assume that such drawn card is considered to be in the player's hand but that even that player cannot look at it?
Thank you!
It is my opinion that this rule is not explicit enough in expressing these facts. Perhaps Wizards should consider re-writing it?
Given that Selvala reveals the very cards that are going to drawn face-down and there hasn't been any problems with her, perhaps Wizards should consider doing away with this rule completely.
The most common "use", if you will, of this rule, is that it lets you reanimate cards like Progenitus or Blightsteel Colossus by somehow knowing they are the top card of your deck, casting a spell/activating an ability that calls for both discarding from hand and a mana payment (Tormenting Voice), with a Chromatic Sphere on the battlefield to be able to draw and discard them while they are a facedown card, thus avoiding the shuffle replacement effect.
You can't avoid shuffling Blightsteel Colossus into your library if it would be put into a graveyard from anywhere. It doesn't matter if it's face down before the movement.
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You can't avoid shuffling Blightsteel Colossus into your library if it would be put into a graveyard from anywhere. It doesn't matter if it's face down before the movement.
Unless Wizards changed something and I don't know about it, your statement is wrong.
Replacement effects need to exist prior to an event to apply. Prior to discarding the Progenitus or Colossus, it is face-down and thus has no characteristics including no rule text. Thus the replacement ability simply doesn't exist and thus cannot modify the discard event.
Other shufflers (like the Eldrazi titans) use a triggered ability that triggers from the graveyard and thus avoid this issue (most likely to occur due to manifest).
You can't avoid shuffling Blightsteel Colossus into your library if it would be put into a graveyard from anywhere. It doesn't matter if it's face down before the movement.
Unless Wizards changed something and I don't know about it, your statement is wrong.
Replacement effects need to exist prior to an event to apply. Prior to discarding the Progenitus or Colossus, it is face-down and thus has no characteristics including no rule text. Thus the replacement ability simply doesn't exist and thus cannot modify the discard event.
Modern, improved shufflers (like the Eldrazi titans) use a triggered ability that triggers from the graveyard and thus avoid this issue (most likely to occur due to manifest).
How do you think they work when being milled? They are face down then too. For that matter, how do you think it works when discarding normally (since your opponent can't see it in your hand)? You need to discard it face up which allows all players to see it has a replacement effect that will shuffle it in. Being face down as part of drawing doesn't change that it will be face up when discarding it (just like it would be face up when milled) and the replacement effect applies at that time.
CR400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone and its owner will be able to look at it in that zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. If the object is moving to the battlefield, each other player who will be able to look at it in that zone does so. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
This rule might be better located, or at least referenced, from 614, 112, or even 108, but here we are.
I'll admit, you had me doubt for a couple minutes. I am curious if you can cite your claim that face-down things have no characteristics.
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400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone and its owner will be able to look at it in that zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. If the object is moving to the battlefield, each other player who will be able to look at it in that zone does so. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
120.8. If a spell or ability causes a card to be drawn while another spell is being cast, the drawn card is kept face down until that spell becomes cast (see rule 601.2i). While face down, it’s considered to have no characteristics. The same is true with relation to another ability being activated. If an effect allows or instructs a player to reveal the card as it’s being drawn, it’s revealed after the spell becomes cast or the ability becomes activated.
The Colossus would move to a public zone, so 400.6 applies. But the card is still in the hand at that time, and that is where it is being looked at. But as 120.8 states, the card in hand has no characteristics, so also no ability creating a replacement effect.
I'll admit, you had me doubt for a couple minutes. I am curious if you can cite your claim that face-down things have no characteristics.
707.2 covers face-down spells and permanents and even says what its own exceptions are, and 406.3 says face-down exiled cards have no characteristics. No explicit rule exists for face-down cards in hand, but if it's true of spells, permanents, and another category of cards that are neither spells nor permanents...
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone and its owner will be able to look at it in that zone, its owner looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. If the object is moving to the battlefield, each other player who will be able to look at it in that zone does so. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the object.
120.8. If a spell or ability causes a card to be drawn while another spell is being cast, the drawn card is kept face down until that spell becomes cast (see rule 601.2i). While face down, it’s considered to have no characteristics. The same is true with relation to another ability being activated. If an effect allows or instructs a player to reveal the card as it’s being drawn, it’s revealed after the spell becomes cast or the ability becomes activated.
The Colossus would move to a public zone, so 400.6 applies. But the card is still in the hand at that time, and that is where it is being looked at. But as 120.8 states, the card in hand has no characteristics, so also no ability creating a replacement effect.
I'll admit, you had me doubt for a couple minutes. I am curious if you can cite your claim that face-down things have no characteristics.
707.2 covers face-down spells and permanents and even says what its own exceptions are, and 406.3 says face-down exiled cards have no characteristics. No explicit rule exists for face-down cards in hand, but if it's true of spells, permanents, and another category of cards that are neither spells nor permanents...
Inductive logic isn't exactly pro forma around here
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It seems this is one of those things where rule manager says "Fixed it. Happy now?" in the next update.
(Also, why doesn't 120.8 doesn't mention mana payments for Ghostly Prison, Mana Leak, Morphing up, Suspend, etc? Ghostly Prison is especially important since you can't produce mana beforehand.)
Modern, improved shufflers (like the Eldrazi titans) use a triggered ability that triggers from the graveyard and thus avoid this issue (most likely to occur due to manifest).
Err... you realize that the original three Eldrazi titans (the ones that have the shuffle trigger, since the return to Zendikar and return to Innistrad versions of them didn't have that ability) were printed before Blightsteel Colossus? Same is true for Nexus of Fate, as well. This isn't a case of the triggered shuffle being the new standard, like with Banishing Light vs. Oblivion Ring.
Modern, improved shufflers (like the Eldrazi titans) use a triggered ability that triggers from the graveyard and thus avoid this issue (most likely to occur due to manifest).
Err... you realize that the original three Eldrazi titans (the ones that have the shuffle trigger, since the return to Zendikar and return to Innistrad versions of them didn't have that ability) were printed before Blightsteel Colossus? Same is true for Nexus of Fate, as well. This isn't a case of the triggered shuffle being the new standard, like with Banishing Light vs. Oblivion Ring.
All of them work as a "No, you can't just cast Animate Dead and be done with it." trigger. (I mean, there are ways around the trigger.) What makes the Eldrazi different is that they're also a defense against mill decks. Though in that particular Standard, I have my doubts concerning their value against mill decks.
Nexus of Fate is slightly different, though. It's using the shuffle to avoid a loop, whereas older extra turn cards (and come to think of it, cards that could recur themselves even without combo shenanigans) just exiled themselves. So it is a slight change in standards, but only changing one standard to another. That "shuffle CARDNAME into library" appeals more to newer players (who generally don't yet separate recursion into different zones but see putting a card that's been used into any zone other than the graveyard or exile as the same thing) than "shuffle CARDNAME" helps. Keep in mind that the "fatties must be shuffled" era of Magic has come to an end as well, since I'm pretty sure no reanimation spell in Modern costs less than four mana, and it's not even on the top ten list of most busted things you can do in any given eternal format.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Modern, improved shufflers (like the Eldrazi titans) use a triggered ability that triggers from the graveyard and thus avoid this issue (most likely to occur due to manifest).
Err... you realize that the original three Eldrazi titans (the ones that have the shuffle trigger, since the return to Zendikar and return to Innistrad versions of them didn't have that ability) were printed before Blightsteel Colossus? Same is true for Nexus of Fate, as well. This isn't a case of the triggered shuffle being the new standard, like with Banishing Light vs. Oblivion Ring.
You are correct. I apologize. I've edited my post to remove the words "modern" and "improved".
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RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
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(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
It is my opinion that this rule is not explicit enough in expressing these facts. Perhaps Wizards should consider re-writing it?
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
Given that Selvala reveals the very cards that are going to drawn face-down and there hasn't been any problems with her, perhaps Wizards should consider doing away with this rule completely.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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But yes, in general, corner of all corner cases.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
Unless Wizards changed something and I don't know about it, your statement is wrong.
Replacement effects need to exist prior to an event to apply. Prior to discarding the Progenitus or Colossus, it is face-down and thus has no characteristics including no rule text. Thus the replacement ability simply doesn't exist and thus cannot modify the discard event.
Other shufflers (like the Eldrazi titans) use a triggered ability that triggers from the graveyard and thus avoid this issue (most likely to occur due to manifest).
This rule might be better located, or at least referenced, from 614, 112, or even 108, but here we are.
I'll admit, you had me doubt for a couple minutes. I am curious if you can cite your claim that face-down things have no characteristics.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
The Colossus would move to a public zone, so 400.6 applies. But the card is still in the hand at that time, and that is where it is being looked at. But as 120.8 states, the card in hand has no characteristics, so also no ability creating a replacement effect.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Good enough for me. I retract my statement.
Inductive logic isn't exactly pro forma around here
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
(Also, why doesn't 120.8 doesn't mention mana payments for Ghostly Prison, Mana Leak, Morphing up, Suspend, etc? Ghostly Prison is especially important since you can't produce mana beforehand.)
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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All of them work as a "No, you can't just cast Animate Dead and be done with it." trigger. (I mean, there are ways around the trigger.) What makes the Eldrazi different is that they're also a defense against mill decks. Though in that particular Standard, I have my doubts concerning their value against mill decks.
Nexus of Fate is slightly different, though. It's using the shuffle to avoid a loop, whereas older extra turn cards (and come to think of it, cards that could recur themselves even without combo shenanigans) just exiled themselves. So it is a slight change in standards, but only changing one standard to another. That "shuffle CARDNAME into library" appeals more to newer players (who generally don't yet separate recursion into different zones but see putting a card that's been used into any zone other than the graveyard or exile as the same thing) than "shuffle CARDNAME" helps. Keep in mind that the "fatties must be shuffled" era of Magic has come to an end as well, since I'm pretty sure no reanimation spell in Modern costs less than four mana, and it's not even on the top ten list of most busted things you can do in any given eternal format.
On phasing:
You are correct. I apologize. I've edited my post to remove the words "modern" and "improved".