I wanted to understand the card draw for Underrealm Lich I get if one is in play and I move to my next draw step I would essentially look at 3 cards and keep one and place the other 2 in the graveyard.
If you have 2 Lich in play do you end up looking at 6 cards on the draw step and placing 5 in the graveyard?
Also if you have a field where you have 2 Lich and a Beast Whisperer in play and you play a creature. Would you end up looking at 6 cards and placing 5 in the graveyard?
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I wanted to understand the card draw for Underrealm Lich I get if one is in play and I move to my next draw step I would essentially look at 3 cards and keep one and place the other 2 in the graveyard.
If you have 2 Lich in play do you end up looking at 6 cards on the draw step and placing 5 in the graveyard?
No.
616.1e Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.
Example: Two permanents are on the battlefield. One is an enchantment that reads “If a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead exile it,” and the other is a creature that reads “If [this creature] would die, instead shuffle it into its owner’s library.” If the creature is destroyed, its controller decides which replacement to apply first; the other does nothing.
Example: Essence of the Wild reads “Creatures you control enter the battlefield as a copy of Essence of the Wild.” A player who controls Essence of the Wild casts Rusted Sentinel, which normally enters the battlefield tapped. As it enters the battlefield, the copy effect from Essence of the Wild is applied first. As a result, it no longer has the ability that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped. Rusted Sentinel will enter the battlefield as an untapped copy of Essence of the Wild.
Impending event: You draw a card
Applicable replacement/prevention: Underrealm Lich #1, Underrealm Lich #2
You choose: Underrealm Lich #1
Result of replacement: Look at the top three cards of your library, then put one into your hand and the rest into your graveyard
Impending event: Look at the top three cards of your library, then put one into your hand and the rest into your graveyard
Applicable replacement/prevention: None
Actual event: Look at the top three cards of your library, then put one into your hand and the rest into your graveyard
Also if you have a field where you have 2 Lich and a Beast Whisperer in play and you play a creature. Would you end up looking at 6 cards and placing 5 in the graveyard?
Still no.
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yea...none of that makes any sense. I'll just stick to just looking at the 3 cards when I draw.
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"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
yea...none of that makes any sense. I'll just stick to just looking at the 3 cards when I draw.
Essentially when you draw a card you replace that event with looking at the top 3. Because you are now looking at the top three instead of drawing any other effects that would apply when drawing a card no longer apply so only one Underrealm Lich can ever apply to a draw.
yea...none of that makes any sense. I'll just stick to just looking at the 3 cards when I draw.
Which is what you have to do. What Argus explained in detail is that you can only apply one of the Liches, because once you've applied one, you're no longer drawing a card, so the other one can't apply (putting a card into your hand is not considered drawing a card, the exact wording matters). Replacement effects like the Lich's are not applied simultaneously, you must first apply one and then see if the event as modified can have other replacement effects applied to it. When you're done, the event happens as modified.
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
Here's the full rules for multiple replacement effects (because the one rule I quoted earlier may have lacked context), with emphasis on a couple other parts that might be confusing you.
616. Interaction of Replacement and/or Prevention Effects
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
616.1a If any of the replacement and/or prevention effects are self-replacement effects (see rule 614.15), one of them must be chosen. If not, proceed to rule 616.1b.
616.1b If any of the replacement and/or prevention effects would modify under whose control an object would enter the battlefield, one of them must be chosen. If not, proceed to rule 616.1c.
616.1c If any of the replacement and/or prevention effects would cause an object to become a copy of another object as it enters the battlefield, one of them must be chosen. If not, proceed to rule 616.1d.
616.1d Any of the applicable replacement and/or prevention effects may be chosen.
616.1e Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.
Example: Two permanents are on the battlefield. One is an enchantment that reads “If a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead exile it,” and the other is a creature that reads “If [this creature] would die, instead shuffle it into its owner’s library.” If the creature is destroyed, its controller decides which replacement to apply first; the other does nothing.
Example: Essence of the Wild reads “Creatures you control enter the battlefield as a copy of Essence of the Wild.” A player who controls Essence of the Wild casts Rusted Sentinel, which normally enters the battlefield tapped. As it enters the battlefield, the copy effect from Essence of the Wild is applied first. As a result, it no longer has the ability that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped. Rusted Sentinel will enter the battlefield as an untapped copy of Essence of the Wild.
616.1f While following the steps in 616.1a–d, one replacement or prevention effect may apply to an event, and another may apply to an event contained within the first event. In this case, the second effect can’t be chosen until after the first effect has been chosen.
Example: A player is instructed to create a token that’s a copy of Voice of All, which has the ability “As Voice of All enters the battlefield, choose a color.” Doubling Season has an ability that reads “If an effect would create one or more tokens under your control, it creates twice that many of those tokens instead.” Because entering the battlefield is an event contained within the event of creating a token, the effect of Doubling Season must be applied first, and then the effects of the two Voice of All tokens may be applied in either order.
616.2. A replacement or prevention effect can become applicable to an event as the result of another replacement or prevention effect that modifies the event.
Example: One effect reads “If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead,” and another reads “If you would draw a card, return a card from your graveyard to your hand instead.” Both effects combine (regardless of the order they came into existence): Instead of gaining 1 life, the player puts a card from their graveyard into their hand.
So if i have underrealm lich in play and i wanted to perform the dredge ability, i would choose which event happens?
If you had an Underrealm Lich on the battlefield and a card with dredge in your graveyard (with enough cards in your library) when you are going to draw a card, you would have to choose between those two replacements. If you want to use the dredge ability, that would probably be your choice.
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
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If you have 2 Lich in play do you end up looking at 6 cards on the draw step and placing 5 in the graveyard?
Also if you have a field where you have 2 Lich and a Beast Whisperer in play and you play a creature. Would you end up looking at 6 cards and placing 5 in the graveyard?
-Stay Frosty
No.
Impending event: You draw a card
Applicable replacement/prevention: Underrealm Lich #1, Underrealm Lich #2
You choose: Underrealm Lich #1
Result of replacement: Look at the top three cards of your library, then put one into your hand and the rest into your graveyard
Impending event: Look at the top three cards of your library, then put one into your hand and the rest into your graveyard
Applicable replacement/prevention: None
Actual event: Look at the top three cards of your library, then put one into your hand and the rest into your graveyard
Still no.
-Stay Frosty
Essentially when you draw a card you replace that event with looking at the top 3. Because you are now looking at the top three instead of drawing any other effects that would apply when drawing a card no longer apply so only one Underrealm Lich can ever apply to a draw.
Here's the full rules for multiple replacement effects (because the one rule I quoted earlier may have lacked context), with emphasis on a couple other parts that might be confusing you.