Say I have a Primordial Mist and Future Sight out, and they've been around for three turns, long enough for me to have three face-down 2/2's on the board, a Grizzly Bears and two Giant Spiders. My opponent goes to cast a Shock, and asks me "Which of those three are the face-down Grizzly Bears?"
In this case, we're assuming the opponent simply forgot which turn the Bears came out, since the three creatures were face-up on my library before they were manifested. Also assume that I have them on the table in the order I manifested them. Rule 707.6 says that I have to clearly differentiate between face-down creatures with regards to when they entered the battlefield, attacked, and "any other differences" between the face-down cards. But the only characteristics defining a face-down manifest card are that they're 2/2, with no names, subtypes, or mana cost. So there aren't any differences between the three creatures that I'm required to reveal. Is denying that information to my opponent legal in this case?
edit:
Should have read the passage again first. It's private information, so you don't have to assist.
Which face down creature is the Grizzly Bears is derived information. In higher level torunaments, you do not have to help an opponent to determne derived information. but in lower level tournaments, derived information is considered free information, so you have to provide it.
From the MTR:
Free information is information to which all players are entitled access without contamination or omissions made by their opponents. If a player is ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, he or she should call a judge and explain the situation. Free information consists of:
• Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state.
• The name of any visible object.
• The number and type of any counter.
• The state (whether it’s tapped, attached to another permanent, face down, etc.) and current zone of any object.
• Player life totals and the game score of the current match.
• The contents of each player’s mana pool.
• The current step and/or phase and which player(s) are active.
Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived information consists of:
• The number of any kind of objects present in any game zone.
• All characteristics of objects in public zones that are not defined as free information.
• Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current tournament. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them.
Private information is information to which players have access only if they are able to determine it from the current visual game state or their own record of previous game actions.
• Any information that is not free or derived is automatically private information.
The following rules govern player communication:
• Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the type of information requested. Players may request to do so away from the match.
• Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly.
• Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.
• At Regular Rules Enforcement Level, all derived information is instead considered free.
Judges are encouraged to help players in determining free information, but must avoid assisting players with derived information about the game state.
In general, under C.R. 707.6, the controller of "multiple ... face-down permanents ... must ensure at all times that [their] face-down ... permanents can be easily differentiated from each other". C.R. 707.6 gives examples of what differentiating those permanents means, but emphasizes that the statement just cited "is not limited to" those examples. In any case, the identity of the three manifested cards in question in this scenario was known to all players by the time each was manifested, since all three were manifested while they were revealed due to Future Sight (recall that distinguishing face-down permanents includes "knowing what ability ... caused the permanents to be face down", among many other things [C.R. 707.6]).
Is this similar to if someone cast Duress on their opponent, failed to write down the contents of their hand, and then immediately asked their opponent to tell them what they had in their hand (before any more cards were drawn, played , or discarded)? Is that something the opponent is obligated to do?
Is this similar to if someone cast Duress on their opponent, failed to write down the contents of their hand, and then immediately asked their opponent to tell them what they had in their hand (before any more cards were drawn, played , or discarded)? Is that something the opponent is obligated to do?
Once duress has resolved, the player is under no obligation to assist their opponent in what is in their hand. If they choose not to write down their hand before the player finished resolving duress, then they are out of luck.
As to your original question about manifest. You do not have to point out which card is the bears, however you do have to make it clear which card was manifested first, second, third, etc. Whether they can figure out which manifest is the bears from that info is their problem.
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In this case, we're assuming the opponent simply forgot which turn the Bears came out, since the three creatures were face-up on my library before they were manifested. Also assume that I have them on the table in the order I manifested them. Rule 707.6 says that I have to clearly differentiate between face-down creatures with regards to when they entered the battlefield, attacked, and "any other differences" between the face-down cards. But the only characteristics defining a face-down manifest card are that they're 2/2, with no names, subtypes, or mana cost. So there aren't any differences between the three creatures that I'm required to reveal. Is denying that information to my opponent legal in this case?
Should have read the passage again first. It's private information, so you don't have to assist.
Which face down creature is the Grizzly Bears is derived information. In higher level torunaments, you do not have to help an opponent to determne derived information. but in lower level tournaments, derived information is considered free information, so you have to provide it.From the MTR:
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
In that case, you would have to answer and truthfully so.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Once duress has resolved, the player is under no obligation to assist their opponent in what is in their hand. If they choose not to write down their hand before the player finished resolving duress, then they are out of luck.
As to your original question about manifest. You do not have to point out which card is the bears, however you do have to make it clear which card was manifested first, second, third, etc. Whether they can figure out which manifest is the bears from that info is their problem.