If I have 9 separate Precursor Golem in play (no other normal Golems, let's say they have been killed for simplicity sake) and target one with a Cackling Counterpart, how many Golems will I have in total at the end?
You have 8 golems being targeted by 9 copy triggers (since the first golem does not receive any of the copy triggers since it is the target). (72)
Plus the 9 golems you had. (81)
Then the result of the spell. (82)
Edit: actually, let me rethink this. As you resolve each one you will have exponentially more...
Edit 2: I think it is 4106.
So as each trigger resolves the copy of the cackling counterpart will target all the new golems as well but never the original golem. So you have ((8*2)^9)+10.
The interaction is correct, I just messed up the math when I was figuring it out. Yes you are only 'casting' the first copy, but then when you do that you get 9 precursor copy effects put onto the stack. When you resolve the first copy effect, you double the number of golems that were eligible to be targeted (the 1 golem with the original spell targeting it is not valid). So after the first resolution you double your golems. Then you have 16, resolve the next golem copy ability, get 16 more. Etc.
Are you sure about these numbers? Remember it only copies "Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell that targets.."
silentstormraider's answer doesn't go against this fact. However, that post excludes the vanilla 3/3 golem tokens! So there are way, way more golems at the end of it, most of them being the tokens a Precursor Golem copy creates when it enters the battlefield.
The most important thing here is, each of the Precursor Golem spell-copying abilities only look at the game state when it resolves, so each will create copies of CC targeting each golem that currently exist on the field at that point in time, including Precursors and vanilla golem tokens created when other Precursor Golem abilities resolved previously!
When you cast Cackling Counterpart (CC), the ability of each of the nine Precursor Golem (PG) trigger and go to the stack. Each ability is a separated object on the stack, so each will resolve separately; let's number those abilities as PG1 through PG9.
The Stack
(top)
PG1
PG2
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
(bottom)
The top object on the stack is the PG1 ability. When PG1 resolves, it creates a copy of CC for each of the PGs on the field that aren't CC's original target, each copy targeting one of those golems. Each one of them is created as a separated object on the stack, on the top.
The Stack
CC1
CC2
CC3
CC4
CC5
CC6
CC7
CC8
PG2
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
Now the top object on the stack is one of the eight CC copies created by PG1, CC1. It resolves, creating a token copy of a PG. And when that PG token copy enters the battlefield, its enters-the-battlefield ability triggers and goes to the top of the stack.
The Stack
PG ETB
CC2
CC3
CC4
CC5
CC6
CC7
CC8
PG2
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
Now the top object on the stack is that PG token's ETB ability. It resolves, creating three 3/3 golem tokens.
The Stack
CC2
CC3
CC4
CC5
CC6
CC7
CC8
PG2
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
Now the top object on the stack is another copy of CC2. So the creation of a PG that then creates three tokens repeats seven more times. Let's skip a bit.
The Stack
PG2
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
Now the top object on the stack is PG2, that is, the ability of another of the original nine PGs. When PG2 resolves, it creates a copy of CC for each golem on the battlefield. But at this point, there are way more golems on the battlefield, and PG2 does create one copy of CC targeting each of them, including the new ones! There are now the nine original PGs (one of which is CC's original target so it doesn't count), plus eight PGs tokens from the CC copies, plus a total of 8*3=24 vanilla golem tokens. So PG2 creates 8+8+24=40 copies of CC.
After all CC copies resolve, you will have 24 more vanilla golem tokens, plus 16 extra PG copies, each triggering for 3 more golem tokens, for a total of 16*3=48 additional vanilla golem tokens. There are now 24+24+48=96 vanilla tokens and 8+8+16=32 PGs, or 128 golems overall.
The Stack
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
PG3's time! PG3 will create 128 copies of CC. 96 of those copies target a 3/3 vanilla Golem token, so 96 more of those. 32 of those copy PGs, so 32 more PGs, and 32*3=96 more 3/3 vanilla Golem tokens.
64 PGs (plus one), 288 tokens, for 352 total golems.
At this point we can realize we are doubling the number of PGs (ignoring that PG that is the target of the original CC) and quadrupling the number of vanilla tokens at each round. So, after we are done with all the triggers from each iteration, we have:
Finally, the last thing to resolve is the original CC, creating a copy of PG, that enters and triggers creating three golem tokens. Add those to the PG9 totals above:
4.098 Precursor Golems, as silentstormraider said; plus 884.739 3/3 colorless Golem creature tokens with no abilities; for a total of 892.930 Golem creatures under your control, the actual answer to the question you asked.
There are some mistakes in the previous. Firstly, it is not true that the number of ordinary golems is quadrupled each time: 96*4=384, not 288. Secondly, a Precursor Golem produces two golem tokens, not three.
This is what I think is correct:
(still not counting the initially targeted Precursor Golem until the end)
Start: 8 Precursor Golems
After first copying trigger and going through its results: 8+8=16 Precursor Golems, 8*2=16 plain golems
Second one: 16+16=32 Precursor Golems, 16 + 16 (direct copies) + 16*2 (from new Precursor Golems) = 64 plain golems
Third one: 32+32=64 Precursor Golems, 64+64+32*2=192 plain golems
Fourth one: 64+64=128 Precursor Golems, 192+192+64*2=512 plain golems
Fifth one: 128+128=256 Precursor Golems, 512+512+128*2=1280 plain golems
Sixth one: 256+256=512 Precursor Golems, 1280+1280+256*2=3072 plain golems
Seventh one: 512+512=1024 Precursor Golems, 3072+3072+512*2=7168 plain golems
Eighth one: 1024+1024=2048 Precursor Golems, 7168+7168+1024*2=16384 plain golems
Ninth one: 2048+2048=4096 Precursor Golems, 16384+16384+2048*2=36864 plain golems
Finally, add the initially targeted Precursor Golem and one copy of it, for 4098.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
You have 8 golems being targeted by 9 copy triggers (since the first golem does not receive any of the copy triggers since it is the target). (72)
Plus the 9 golems you had. (81)
Then the result of the spell. (82)
Edit: actually, let me rethink this. As you resolve each one you will have exponentially more...
Edit 2: I think it is 4106.
So as each trigger resolves the copy of the cackling counterpart will target all the new golems as well but never the original golem. So you have ((8*2)^9)+10.
And there we have it.... 4098 GOLEMS! As I said a LOT of golems.
Is there are rules person who can confirm this type of interaction?
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
silentstormraider's answer doesn't go against this fact. However, that post excludes the vanilla 3/3 golem tokens! So there are way, way more golems at the end of it, most of them being the tokens a Precursor Golem copy creates when it enters the battlefield.
The most important thing here is, each of the Precursor Golem spell-copying abilities only look at the game state when it resolves, so each will create copies of CC targeting each golem that currently exist on the field at that point in time, including Precursors and vanilla golem tokens created when other Precursor Golem abilities resolved previously!
When you cast Cackling Counterpart (CC), the ability of each of the nine Precursor Golem (PG) trigger and go to the stack. Each ability is a separated object on the stack, so each will resolve separately; let's number those abilities as PG1 through PG9.
(top)
PG1
PG2
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
(bottom)
The top object on the stack is the PG1 ability. When PG1 resolves, it creates a copy of CC for each of the PGs on the field that aren't CC's original target, each copy targeting one of those golems. Each one of them is created as a separated object on the stack, on the top.
CC1
CC2
CC3
CC4
CC5
CC6
CC7
CC8
PG2
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
Now the top object on the stack is one of the eight CC copies created by PG1, CC1. It resolves, creating a token copy of a PG. And when that PG token copy enters the battlefield, its enters-the-battlefield ability triggers and goes to the top of the stack.
PG ETB
CC2
CC3
CC4
CC5
CC6
CC7
CC8
PG2
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
Now the top object on the stack is that PG token's ETB ability. It resolves, creating three 3/3 golem tokens.
CC2
CC3
CC4
CC5
CC6
CC7
CC8
PG2
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
Now the top object on the stack is another copy of CC2. So the creation of a PG that then creates three tokens repeats seven more times. Let's skip a bit.
PG2
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
Now the top object on the stack is PG2, that is, the ability of another of the original nine PGs. When PG2 resolves, it creates a copy of CC for each golem on the battlefield. But at this point, there are way more golems on the battlefield, and PG2 does create one copy of CC targeting each of them, including the new ones! There are now the nine original PGs (one of which is CC's original target so it doesn't count), plus eight PGs tokens from the CC copies, plus a total of 8*3=24 vanilla golem tokens. So PG2 creates 8+8+24=40 copies of CC.
After all CC copies resolve, you will have 24 more vanilla golem tokens, plus 16 extra PG copies, each triggering for 3 more golem tokens, for a total of 16*3=48 additional vanilla golem tokens. There are now 24+24+48=96 vanilla tokens and 8+8+16=32 PGs, or 128 golems overall.
PG3
PG4
PG5
PG6
PG7
PG8
PG9
CC
PG3's time! PG3 will create 128 copies of CC. 96 of those copies target a 3/3 vanilla Golem token, so 96 more of those. 32 of those copy PGs, so 32 more PGs, and 32*3=96 more 3/3 vanilla Golem tokens.
64 PGs (plus one), 288 tokens, for 352 total golems.
At this point we can realize we are doubling the number of PGs (ignoring that PG that is the target of the original CC) and quadrupling the number of vanilla tokens at each round. So, after we are done with all the triggers from each iteration, we have:
PG4- 128 PGs, 864 vanilla
PG5- 256 PGs, 3.456 vanilla
PG6- 512 PGs, 13.824 vanilla
PG7- 1.024 PGs, 55.296 vanilla
PG8- 2.048 PGs, 221.184 vanilla
PG9- 4.096 PGs, 884.736 vanilla
Finally, the last thing to resolve is the original CC, creating a copy of PG, that enters and triggers creating three golem tokens. Add those to the PG9 totals above:
4.098 Precursor Golems, as silentstormraider said; plus 884.739 3/3 colorless Golem creature tokens with no abilities; for a total of 892.930 Golem creatures under your control, the actual answer to the question you asked.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Thank you for the correction willdice.
This is what I think is correct:
(still not counting the initially targeted Precursor Golem until the end)
Start: 8 Precursor Golems
After first copying trigger and going through its results: 8+8=16 Precursor Golems, 8*2=16 plain golems
Second one: 16+16=32 Precursor Golems, 16 + 16 (direct copies) + 16*2 (from new Precursor Golems) = 64 plain golems
Third one: 32+32=64 Precursor Golems, 64+64+32*2=192 plain golems
Fourth one: 64+64=128 Precursor Golems, 192+192+64*2=512 plain golems
Fifth one: 128+128=256 Precursor Golems, 512+512+128*2=1280 plain golems
Sixth one: 256+256=512 Precursor Golems, 1280+1280+256*2=3072 plain golems
Seventh one: 512+512=1024 Precursor Golems, 3072+3072+512*2=7168 plain golems
Eighth one: 1024+1024=2048 Precursor Golems, 7168+7168+1024*2=16384 plain golems
Ninth one: 2048+2048=4096 Precursor Golems, 16384+16384+2048*2=36864 plain golems
Finally, add the initially targeted Precursor Golem and one copy of it, for 4098.