Let's say I have a Mimic Vat, imprinted with a Winding Constrictor. I activate the Mimic Vat, but don't let it resolve yet. I then bounce the Mimic Vat, and use Mirror of Fate to move Winding Constrictor from the exile zone to the library. I then resolve the Mimic Vat activation. Since the Mimic Vat is no longer on the battlefield, will we use the last known information of the Mimic Vat, see that it was imprinted with Winding Constrictor at the time, and create a Winding Constrictor token? Or will no token be created?
The reason I ask is because of a ruling of Spellweaver Volute, where the ability will successfully copy the enchanted instant even if the instant is no longer in the graveyard, provided it was in the graveyard enchanted by Spellweaver Volute when Volute leaves the battlefield. But, this situation is a little different, so I'm not sure.
1. The choice of which card to copy with mimic vat is made at resolution. If no cards are in exile from the ability then it will resolve and do nothing.
2. This is incorrect. If you exile the enchanted instant card before the ability resolves then nothing will be copied and no spell will be cast.
5/1/2007 Say Spellweaver Volute’s ability triggers, then the enchanted instant card is exiled in response. Spellweaver Volute, which is now enchanting nothing, is put into its owner’s graveyard as a state-based action. When the Volute’s ability resolves, it will check its last existence on the battlefield and identify the “enchanted card” as “nothing,” so no copy is created.
"Say Spellweaver Volute’s ability triggers, then Spellweaver Volute leaves the battlefield in response. Then the instant card that was enchanted is removed from the graveyard in response. When the Volute’s ability resolves, it will check its last existence on the battlefield and identify the “enchanted card” as that instant card, so the card is copied and controller of the triggered ability may cast it."
Ah I read your spellweaver situation wrong. That being said the Mimic Vat scenario is different because last known information doesn't get involved. When Mimic Vat resolves you are given a choice of which exiled card to copy. (Usually there is only one choice, but in rare scenarios there can be 2 cards). If there are no cards in exile there are no legal choices to make and so nothing gets copied.
If I may, I think you (Deedlit) were confusing abilities that care about some specific object (e.g. their source or the card enchanted by their source, c.f. 608.2g), and linked abilities that care about cards put in exile by other linked abilities (c.f. 406.6, or section 607, particularly 607.2a).
Also, I'm surprised about genini2 second post. I thougt that if several cards were somehow imprinted on, say, Prototype Portal (e.g. with a little help from Panharmonicon), X would be the sum of each card's cmc and you'd get a token of each (because of 607.3). In particular, there doesn't seem to be any choice involved (the ability merely looks at objects in the exile zone and find those put there by its twin).
It's unfortunately harder to achieve with Mimic Vat though. Since each triggered ability somewhat "throws the old imprinted cards away", you'd need to make a single triggered ability exile two cards at once for it to work, which is tricky, to say the least. But assuming we achieved it somehow, it should behave the same as Prototype Portal or Elite Arcanist (since they also refer to "the exiled card" and not "the last exiled card" like e.g. Duplicant)
Panharmonicon/Strionic Resonator (gatherer links) gatherer rulings seem to confirm this. But just in case, if someone could confirm that would be great! (basically, consider this post as a follow-up question rather than a real answer)
relevant mentioned gatherer ruling:
3/16/2018 In some cases involving linked abilities, an ability requires information about “the exiled card.” When this happens, the ability gets multiple answers. If these answers are being used to determine the value of a variable, the sum is used. For example, if Elite Arcanist’s enters-the-battlefield ability is copied, two cards are exiled. The value of X in the activation cost of Elite Arcanist’s other ability is the sum of the two cards’ converted mana costs. As the ability resolves, you create copies of both cards and can cast none, one, or both of the copies in any order.
(mentioned rules are taken from the comprehensive rules, July 13th 2018)
[edit: Oh right, melded permanents would work, and the gatherer specifically says you choose one of the two creatures rather than make a copy of both. So it doesn't behave like Elite Arcanist, why is that the case ? ]
@genini2: Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with that line of reasoning; if bouncing the Mimic Vat meant the ability would later look for what cards were imprinted on Mimic Vat when it left the battlefield, then even if there were two or more cards imprinted, the choice would be made between those cards, and not what cards are currently in the exile zone. But it does depend on that "if", of course.
If the copied card does need to be in the exile zone, regardless of if or when the Mimic Vat left the battlefield, then may I ask a follow-up question:
What if we had the same scenario: Mimic Vat is bounced, imprinted card is moved from the exile zone, but now the imprinted card is moved back in to the exile zone. So the exiled card is now in the exile zone upon resolution; does last known information apply here, where the Mimic Vat was imprinted with the exiled card when it left the battlefield, and the exiled card currently in the exile zone?
The card now in exile is a different object from the one that was exiled with the Vat, even though it is represented by the same piece of card board. When it left the exile zone, it became a new object, and when it returned there, it became a new object again. But even if you exile an exiled card, so no real zone change, that, too, will still make it a new object. The Vat thus has no other choice but to use LKI.
@Rezzahan: Wait, does the Vat's ability use LKI in determining what cards are imprinted on it, if the Mimic Vat has left the battlefield? genini2 and Olxinos say no, but your last sentence made me curious.
Sorry about that. I was too hung up on the card becoming a new object, and didn't think the LKI issue through. No, Vat does not use LKI, you can only choose cards that have been exiled with it and are still there.
The reason I ask is because of a ruling of Spellweaver Volute, where the ability will successfully copy the enchanted instant even if the instant is no longer in the graveyard, provided it was in the graveyard enchanted by Spellweaver Volute when Volute leaves the battlefield. But, this situation is a little different, so I'm not sure.
2. This is incorrect. If you exile the enchanted instant card before the ability resolves then nothing will be copied and no spell will be cast.
5/1/2007 Say Spellweaver Volute’s ability triggers, then the enchanted instant card is exiled in response. Spellweaver Volute, which is now enchanting nothing, is put into its owner’s graveyard as a state-based action. When the Volute’s ability resolves, it will check its last existence on the battlefield and identify the “enchanted card” as “nothing,” so no copy is created.
"Say Spellweaver Volute’s ability triggers, then Spellweaver Volute leaves the battlefield in response. Then the instant card that was enchanted is removed from the graveyard in response. When the Volute’s ability resolves, it will check its last existence on the battlefield and identify the “enchanted card” as that instant card, so the card is copied and controller of the triggered ability may cast it."
But thank you for your response!
Also, I'm surprised about genini2 second post. I thougt that if several cards were somehow imprinted on, say, Prototype Portal (e.g. with a little help from Panharmonicon), X would be the sum of each card's cmc and you'd get a token of each (because of 607.3). In particular, there doesn't seem to be any choice involved (the ability merely looks at objects in the exile zone and find those put there by its twin).
It's unfortunately harder to achieve with Mimic Vat though. Since each triggered ability somewhat "throws the old imprinted cards away", you'd need to make a single triggered ability exile two cards at once for it to work, which is tricky, to say the least. But assuming we achieved it somehow, it should behave the same as Prototype Portal or Elite Arcanist (since they also refer to "the exiled card" and not "the last exiled card" like e.g. Duplicant)
Panharmonicon/Strionic Resonator (gatherer links) gatherer rulings seem to confirm this. But just in case, if someone could confirm that would be great! (basically, consider this post as a follow-up question rather than a real answer)
relevant mentioned gatherer ruling:
[edit: Oh right, melded permanents would work, and the gatherer specifically says you choose one of the two creatures rather than make a copy of both. So it doesn't behave like Elite Arcanist, why is that the case ?
]
"[...]Create a token that's a copy of a card exiled with Mimic Vat.[...]"
That's why you get to choose what to copy at resolution.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
If the copied card does need to be in the exile zone, regardless of if or when the Mimic Vat left the battlefield, then may I ask a follow-up question:
What if we had the same scenario: Mimic Vat is bounced, imprinted card is moved from the exile zone, but now the imprinted card is moved back in to the exile zone. So the exiled card is now in the exile zone upon resolution; does last known information apply here, where the Mimic Vat was imprinted with the exiled card when it left the battlefield, and the exiled card currently in the exile zone?
The Vat thus has no other choice but to use LKI.Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)