let's say I put down a Angel of Sanctions and target the Mimic Vat of a friend of mine. He has a 6/6 creature exiled on his Vat. If he has Gruul Ragebeast on his field the whole time, can he fight my Angel with his now summed 6/6 creature, resolving in my Angel immediately dying and his Vat therefore returning to the battlefield?
He says he can respond to my Angel's ETB effect and play around the stack. If he would respond to the cast trigger, we agreed that all of the above could'nt happen.
Also, what could have I have possibly done better? Seems like he was sort of protected against all kind of ETB-Exile effects then.
Your friend can activate Mimic Vat's second ability any time they have priority, including in response to Angel of Sanctions's enters-the-battlefield ability (C.R. 117.7, 117.1b); the former ability will get to resolve before the latter (C.R. 405.2, 117.7, 117.4). Any ability that triggers from the token entering the battlefield this way will likewise get to resolve before the Angel of Sanctions ability (C.R. 405.2, 117.7, 117.4)
If Angel of Sanctions leaves the battlefield before its enters-the-battlefield ability resolves, the targeted permanent won't be exiled due to that ability, since Angel of Sanctions has already left the battlefield (C.R. 610.3b). See also this thread and this thread.
EDIT (Jul. 2, 2020): The relevant part of one rule was moved in the Core Set 2021 update.
EDIT (Nov. 16, 2022): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
It all started to make sense how you described it, but then i came across this post.
Why does the Angel of Serenity still have it's ETB to cause a permanent exile effect, but my Angel of Sanctions doesn't? I'm quite confused, as you and those guys in the linked thread seem to contradict each other, or am I wrong?
Wouldn't my Angel of Sanction's ETB come after its LTB, too?
There is no contradiction and both rulings are right.
Angel of Serenity (old, loophole templating for this type of effect): "When Angel of Serenity enters the battlefield, you may exile up to three other target creatures from the battlefield and/or creature cards from graveyards.
When Angel of Serenity leaves the battlefield, return the exiled cards to their owners' hands."
If no such Angel of Serenity object exists to leave the battlefield and trigger the return ability, it will, well, never trigger.
Angel of Sanctions (new, non-loophole templating): "When Angel of Sanctions enters the battlefield, you may exile target nonland permanent an opponent controls until Angel of Sanctions leaves the battlefield."
As soon as the Angel of Sanctions object is no longer on the battlefield, the duration of the effect has ended and the card returns.
It all started to make sense how you described it, but then i came across this post.
Why does the Angel of Serenity still have it's ETB to cause a permanent exile effect, but my Angel of Sanctions doesn't? I'm quite confused, as you and those guys in the linked thread seem to contradict each other, or am I wrong?
Wouldn't my Angel of Sanction's ETB come after its LTB, too?
There's a key difference between how the triggers on these two cards work. Angel of Serenity has the old template, in which this kind of ability is performed with two separate triggers, one to exile when the card enters and one to return when the card leaves. With the old version, it was possible to remove the creature or enchantment with the trigger in question while the ETB portion was on the stack, which would cause the LTB to trigger second and resolve first, returning nothing and allowing for no way for the exiled cards to return.
Angel of Sanctions has the new version of the ability that functions under a single ETB trigger with a duration. The "until" duration that actually returns the exiled card is not a trigger and does not use the stack, and, unlike the two-trigger model, the duration can recognize if something is out of place when the trigger resolves. If the trigger resolves without the angel on the battlefield, the "until" duration will recognize that the effect that would exile the target has already ended and proceed to not exile the target.
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let's say I put down a Angel of Sanctions and target the Mimic Vat of a friend of mine. He has a 6/6 creature exiled on his Vat. If he has Gruul Ragebeast on his field the whole time, can he fight my Angel with his now summed 6/6 creature, resolving in my Angel immediately dying and his Vat therefore returning to the battlefield?
He says he can respond to my Angel's ETB effect and play around the stack. If he would respond to the cast trigger, we agreed that all of the above could'nt happen.
Also, what could have I have possibly done better? Seems like he was sort of protected against all kind of ETB-Exile effects then.
Thanks in advance!
If Angel of Sanctions leaves the battlefield before its enters-the-battlefield ability resolves, the targeted permanent won't be exiled due to that ability, since Angel of Sanctions has already left the battlefield (C.R. 610.3b). See also this thread and this thread.
EDIT (Jul. 2, 2020): The relevant part of one rule was moved in the Core Set 2021 update.
EDIT (Nov. 16, 2022): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
thanks for your quick response.
It all started to make sense how you described it, but then i came across this post.
Why does the Angel of Serenity still have it's ETB to cause a permanent exile effect, but my Angel of Sanctions doesn't? I'm quite confused, as you and those guys in the linked thread seem to contradict each other, or am I wrong?
Wouldn't my Angel of Sanction's ETB come after its LTB, too?
Angel of Serenity (old, loophole templating for this type of effect): "When Angel of Serenity enters the battlefield, you may exile up to three other target creatures from the battlefield and/or creature cards from graveyards.
When Angel of Serenity leaves the battlefield, return the exiled cards to their owners' hands."
If no such Angel of Serenity object exists to leave the battlefield and trigger the return ability, it will, well, never trigger.
Angel of Sanctions (new, non-loophole templating): "When Angel of Sanctions enters the battlefield, you may exile target nonland permanent an opponent controls until Angel of Sanctions leaves the battlefield."
As soon as the Angel of Sanctions object is no longer on the battlefield, the duration of the effect has ended and the card returns.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
There's a key difference between how the triggers on these two cards work. Angel of Serenity has the old template, in which this kind of ability is performed with two separate triggers, one to exile when the card enters and one to return when the card leaves. With the old version, it was possible to remove the creature or enchantment with the trigger in question while the ETB portion was on the stack, which would cause the LTB to trigger second and resolve first, returning nothing and allowing for no way for the exiled cards to return.
Angel of Sanctions has the new version of the ability that functions under a single ETB trigger with a duration. The "until" duration that actually returns the exiled card is not a trigger and does not use the stack, and, unlike the two-trigger model, the duration can recognize if something is out of place when the trigger resolves. If the trigger resolves without the angel on the battlefield, the "until" duration will recognize that the effect that would exile the target has already ended and proceed to not exile the target.