I have question about putting counters on permanents, and how I am allowed to respond to that.
More precisely, when Geralf's Messenger dies and comes back with a +1/+1 counter, can I respond to that with my Animation Module by paying 1C to create a token?
I read somewhere that when a creature enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it, this actually means that the creature enters the battlefield and then the counters are placed on it. To this I can respond, and this will also trigger e.g. Hardened Scales. Is that correct and similar to the example with the Animation Module?
Had a look at the comprehensive rules, and the closted thing I found was this here : 121.6a. If an object enters the battlefield with counters on it, the effect causing the object to be given counters may specify which player puts those counters on it. If the effect doesn't specify a player, the object's controller puts those counters on it.
But I am still unsure. I will meet my friends soon to play and I am expecting a rules discussion about this.
A permanent that enters with counters, will exist on the battlefield with that counter from its very first moment. There is never a time, when the counter is not on the permanent. You cannot respond to this. But a permanent entering the battlefield with counters counts a placing counters on that permanent, so you still get the trigger from Animation Module. Hardened Scales creates a replacement effect, that simply changes the number of counters that the permanent receives. This is not a trigger.
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen—they aren’t locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like “shields” around whatever they’re affecting.
[...]
614.1c Effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ,” “As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ,” or “[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . “ are replacement effects.
614.1d Continuous effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . .” or “[Objects] enter the battlefield . . .” are replacement effects.
121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it’s on the battlefield and also to an object that’s given counters as it enters the battlefield.
Note that C.R. 121.6a, as you cited in comment 1, applies above all to things like the tribute ability, which changes the player who puts counters on a permanent (C.R. 702.103a). Your scenario, however, doesn't change who that player is.
A permanent that enters with counters, will exist on the battlefield with that counter from its very first moment. There is never a time, when the counter is not on the permanent. You cannot respond to this. But a permanent entering the battlefield with counters counts a placing counters on that permanent, so you still get the trigger fromAnimation Module.
Ok thank you very much for the clarification! Understood what you wrote about the replacement effect.
As far as Geralf's Messenger is concerned, I understand I can summarize the undying part as follows: When Geralf's Messenger comes back to play, he already has the counter. However that event counts a placing a counter on him, which will trigger Animation Module's ability. I can pay for it and create my token.
More precisely, when Geralf's Messenger dies and comes back with a +1/+1 counter, can I respond to that with my Animation Module by paying 1C to create a token?
I read somewhere that when a creature enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it, this actually means that the creature enters the battlefield and then the counters are placed on it. To this I can respond, and this will also trigger e.g. Hardened Scales. Is that correct and similar to the example with the Animation Module?
Had a look at the comprehensive rules, and the closted thing I found was this here :
121.6a. If an object enters the battlefield with counters on it, the effect causing the object to be given counters may specify which player puts those counters on it. If the effect doesn't specify a player, the object's controller puts those counters on it.
But I am still unsure. I will meet my friends soon to play and I am expecting a rules discussion about this.
Could someone please shed some light?
My gallery of altered cards
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Ok thank you very much for the clarification! Understood what you wrote about the replacement effect.
As far as Geralf's Messenger is concerned, I understand I can summarize the undying part as follows: When Geralf's Messenger comes back to play, he already has the counter. However that event counts a placing a counter on him, which will trigger Animation Module's ability. I can pay for it and create my token.
My gallery of altered cards
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
My gallery of altered cards