So, I have a friend I play with who likes to use combo's that seem pretty broken. I get how combining Composite Golem and Nim Deathmantle could create a nigh infinite amount of mana. But he suggested that he could use the ability to return several creatures at a time.
So, in theory, if I wiped his field with Pestilence he figures he could bring it all back with this infinite mana combo. By sacrificing Composite Golem for the mana, returning it with Nim Deathmantle enough times to save up the extra mana to bring back everything else with Nim Deathmantle.
At the time that he proposed this his girlfriend and I argued that this sounds too broken and he agreed not to do it. In the mean time I've tried looking it up, and can't seem to find where that would be illegal. However, it seems to me, that once he returns one creature from the graveyard, the effects of Pestilence would be resolved and any other creatures would no longer be 'going' to the graveyard, as Deathmantle requires, they would already be there.
Can anyone confirm or deny my thoughts on the matter?
Your friend is right. If his board gets wiped, Nim Deathmantle will trigger for each nontoken creature. If your opponent has enough mana, paying for each trigger will allow him to bring back all of his nontoken creatures.
Gatherer's rulings even confirm this:
1/1/2011
If multiple nontoken creatures are put into your graveyard from the battlefield at the same time, Nim Deathmantle’s second ability triggers that many times. You put the triggered abilities on the stack in any order, so you’ll determine in which order they resolve. If you pay more than once, each card you paid 4 for will end up on the battlefield under your control, and Nim Deathmantle will end up attached to the last card that returned to the battlefield this way that it could equip.
Both of you are right, but what happens all depends on the timing of each ability.
He's right in that he can get infinite mana and recur every creature as they die with Nim Deathmantle, as once he has the mana in his pool he can just pay it for every trigger it gets as each creature dies. This would make any single-shot removal like a kill spell or regular boardwipe almost useless.
The key way to stop him from doing so would be to use Pestilence in response to him sacrificing the Composite Golem the very first time to start the chain. Basically, as soon as he says he wants to start the chain and sacrifices the Golem and Nim Deathmantle triggers, you activate in response to that first trigger, killing all of his other creatures before the Golem comes back to give him more mana. He will still get the triggers for all of his creatures dying, but unless he has mana for them without the Golem chain, he likely won't be able to recur them. After you're done and let the Golem trigger resolve, it would then come back and he would choose to proceed or not with the mana chain. Also remember that Pestilence sacrifices itself when there are no creatures left, so unless you can get rid of the Nim Deathmantle it's not a permanent solution.
Edit: This also depends on the creatures he has on board. If they are all lower toughness than the Golem, then there's actually no way you'll be able to stop him with Pestilence. The creatures would all die before the Golem from the 1 damage pings and then he could start the chain as soon as they did.
Edit: This also depends on the creatures he has on board. If they are all lower toughness than the Golem, then there's actually no way you'll be able to stop him with Pestilence. The creatures would all die before the Golem from the 1 damage pings and then he could start the chain as soon as they did.
But only if they all have the same toughness. If they have different toughnesses, the more fragile ones die first, generating triggers, while the tougher ones still stay on the board. He'll have to start the Golem-Mantle chain at this time, if he wants to save those smaller creatures. And if so, you can respond to him starting the chain with more Pestilence activations to get rid of the bigger ones, for which he will then not have the mana to return them, unless he gets it from somewhere else. (Though he will have the 5 mana from the Golem sacrifice, since that is a mana ability and resolves immediately upon activation without using the stack.)
Also remember that Pestilence sacrifices itself when there are no creatures left, so unless you can get rid of the Nim Deathmantle it's not a permanent solution.
Well, it triggers for the selfsacrifice in the end step, so there's plenty of time to get another creature on the board to stop this from happening. And with the opponent returning creatures with Deathmantle, that's pretty certainly the case.
This sounds kind of complicated, just to make sure I understand:
He sacrifices Composite Golem once for the five mana, before he announces that he's using four to bring it back with Nim Deathmantle I use Pestilence to kill his creatures (provided I have the mana to do so).... What's stopping him from still bringing back the Golem as much as he wants and still bringing the rest back?
I'm not super concerned with countering this ability, but I do want to understand the combo better. The deck I use most often basically weaponizes my life (with Pestilence and Underworld Coinsmith, combined with a bunch of lifegaining cards) and bypasses my opponents monsters. Literally my biggest nightmare is effects that destroy enchantments lol
Probably good to understand the combo though, for other decks... If I can understand the example with Pestilence I'm sure I can apply that to other counters.
He sacrifices Composite Golem once for the five mana, before he announces that he's using four to bring it back with Nim Deathmantle I use Pestilence to kill his creatures (provided I have the mana to do so).... What's stopping him from still bringing back the Golem as much as he wants and still bringing the rest back?
The return is a triggered ability and it has to resolve for the opponent to pay for the return of the creature. If you respond to the trigger, all your responses will happen first. The Golem has only that one trigger associated to it, no other trigger can bring back the Golem. If you respond while that specific trigger is still on the stack, he never gets the chance to go through the loop before all responses and resulting triggers are done.
what they're saying is that once he sacs Composite Golem, w/ its mana ability on the stack (its a trigger), you can respond w/ your Pestilence & kill off any other creatures he has out & deal damage to everyone, then he gets a chance to decide if he wants to spend any other mana that he has available to him to bring back any creatures that died to your Pestilence w/ Nim Deathmantle's ability; & all that happens before his Composite Golem's mana ability resolves. (meaning he doesnt yet have that mana available to him)
No, that's wrong.
Composite golem has no triggered abilities, it has an activated mana ability, so it doesn't use the stack. You get the mana immediately after activating it and saccing the Golem. So he has that mana available for any Mantle triggers that come afterwards including the one for the Golem's death itself. But he can't pay until the Mantle trigger for any creature's death to return it resolves.
Oh, okay. I think I get it now, so the stack order would go:
1: Golem is sacrificed, providing five mana.
2: I kill creatures with Pestilence.
3: Then he use four mana to bring back anything other than the golem.
Theoretically using more mana, if it's available, to bring back other cards, but not the golem.
One "edited" post deleted, two others merged. Spam warning issued for polluting this thread in such a way.
Please actually edit out, by strikethrough formating, the things you've realized you were wrong about, and spell out your corrected thoughts and identify them as edits, or at least, outright delete the posts that you are not satisfied with instead of leaving them empty.
-MadMage
then of course you could also complicate matters even more by activating your Pestilence (provided you have the mana of course) again in reponse to him activating the Nim Deathmantle to kill off any creatures he brought back from the GY w/ your 1st activation of Pestilence, & again all this would still happen before he ever got his "golem mana"
Also, this one post you left with content in it is more on the strategy advice side than on the rules answer one.
-MadMage
you want to respond to the golem's "mana" ability, as its a triggered ability, you cant respond to the sac, b/c sac doesnt stack, but its triggered ability of generating mana is something you can respond to, so he sacs, mana ability on the stack, you respond w/ pestilence, kill stuff, then after your pestilence ability resolves (meaning that everything you killed goes to the graveyard & everyone's marked down the damage that they took), then he gets his golem's mana
No, the Golem's abilty does not use the stack, because it is a mana ability, and an activated one at that. It resolves immediately upon activation. You cannot respond to it. I don't even know how you come to think of a triggered ability here. Triggered ailities always use the words "when", "whenever", or "at", none of which the Golem's ability uses. That ability has a colon, however, which is a clear indicator of an activated ability, which always have the template [cost]:[effect].
605.1a An activated ability is a mana ability if it meets all of the following criteria: it doesn’t have a target, it could add mana to a player’s mana pool when it resolves, and it’s not a loyalty ability. (See rule 606, “Loyalty Abilities.”)
activated ability - check
doesn't have a target - check
could add mana to a mana pool - check
not a loyalty ability - check
-> Golem has a mana ability
605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.6c.)
That's why the Golem-Deathmantle mana combo works in the first place. Becasue it produces the mana (+1) to return itself and you get that mana in time to use it for the Mantle trigger.
I'm very confused. If he can use the golem/mantle combo as many times as he wants on a turn to acquire infinite mana, whats to stop him from bringing everything back even if I use Pestilence during the combo?
The fact, that he has to resolve the Golem's Mantle trigger to return it. This ia a thing that does not happen immediately, you can respond to it. And so long as the trigger does not resolve, the Golem stays in the graveyard and cannot be sacrificed to get more mana.
Maybe an illustration of a simple exampe will help your understanding.
Example:
Your opponent has the Deathmantle, the Composite Golem, and an Eager Cadet. All his lands are tapped, the Golem is the only source of mana avaialble to him right now. You have Pestilence and enough black mana to activate it multiple times.
1) You activate Pestilence once, and put that on the stack. Then you pass.
2) Your opponent responds by sacrificing the Golem, which gives him 5 mana, and puts a Deathmantle trigger for the Golem on the stack.
TOP
Deathmantle trigger (Golem)
Pestilence activation
BOTTOM
3) You respond by activating Pestilence again
TOP
Pestilence activation
Deathmantle trigger (Golem)
Pestilence activation
BOTTOM
4) Neither of you respond (you don't want to, and your opponent doesn't have anything), and Pestilence deals 1 damage to everything, which kills the Cadet, which triggers Deathmantle
TOP
Deathmantle trigger (Cadet)
Deathmantle trigger (Golem)
Pestilence activation
BOTTOM
5) No one responds (you don't want to, and your opponent doesn't have anything), and the Deathmantle trigger resolves. Now your opponent can choose to pay 4 of the 5 mana in his pool to return the Cadet.
5a) If he does, the Cadet returns, but he won't have the mana to pay for the Golem's return later.
5b) If he doesn't, the Cadet stays in the graveyard for good, but he will have the mana to pay for the Golem.
6) Let's say, your opponent is smart and wants the Golem more than the Cadet. So after another round of passing priority, the Golem's return trigger from the Mantle resolves, for which your opponent pays. The Golem returns.
7) Since you cannot really get rid of the Golem now, both of you pass and Pestilence deals 1 damage to everything.
I think I need to read up on how the stack works, this whole conversation has me questioning what I've been taught in the last twenty years I've never actually read the rules until this past week, everything was taught word of mouth, and holy moley has there been a game of telephone on some of what I've learned... Particularly mulligans.
I think I get it though. Just need to practice actually doing it, and to read the rules on the stack for my own peace of mind.
Maybe an illustration of a simple exampe will help your understanding.
Example:
Your opponent has the Deathmantle, the Composite Golem, and an Eager Cadet. All his lands are tapped, the Golem is the only source of mana avaialble to him right now. You have Pestilence and enough black mana to activate it multiple times.
1) You activate Pestilence once, and put that on the stack. Then you pass.
2) Your opponent responds by sacrificing the Golem, which gives him 5 mana, and puts a Deathmantle trigger for the Golem on the stack.
They could let pestilence resolve and respond to the cadet's Deathmantle Trigger. Then they can make mana and mantle can save them both Cadet and Golem.
Pestilence, in the meantime, would be able to kill remaining creatures in response to the Mana Combo.
In a situation with multiple creatures with varying toughness less than the golem's, pestilence would kill them in "waves." The golem player is able to pick one of these waves and save all the creatures in it, all the ones who died on the same state-check after the resolution of a particular pestilence activation.
You are right. Though that just means, that this becomes a matter of who blinks first. If Pestilence is activated first, the Deathmantle player triumphs. If the mana combo is attempted first, Pestilence will clear most of the board.
So, in theory, if I wiped his field with Pestilence he figures he could bring it all back with this infinite mana combo. By sacrificing Composite Golem for the mana, returning it with Nim Deathmantle enough times to save up the extra mana to bring back everything else with Nim Deathmantle.
At the time that he proposed this his girlfriend and I argued that this sounds too broken and he agreed not to do it. In the mean time I've tried looking it up, and can't seem to find where that would be illegal. However, it seems to me, that once he returns one creature from the graveyard, the effects of Pestilence would be resolved and any other creatures would no longer be 'going' to the graveyard, as Deathmantle requires, they would already be there.
Can anyone confirm or deny my thoughts on the matter?
Gatherer's rulings even confirm this:
1/1/2011
If multiple nontoken creatures are put into your graveyard from the battlefield at the same time, Nim Deathmantle’s second ability triggers that many times. You put the triggered abilities on the stack in any order, so you’ll determine in which order they resolve. If you pay more than once, each card you paid 4 for will end up on the battlefield under your control, and Nim Deathmantle will end up attached to the last card that returned to the battlefield this way that it could equip.
He's right in that he can get infinite mana and recur every creature as they die with Nim Deathmantle, as once he has the mana in his pool he can just pay it for every trigger it gets as each creature dies. This would make any single-shot removal like a kill spell or regular boardwipe almost useless.
The key way to stop him from doing so would be to use Pestilence in response to him sacrificing the Composite Golem the very first time to start the chain. Basically, as soon as he says he wants to start the chain and sacrifices the Golem and Nim Deathmantle triggers, you activate in response to that first trigger, killing all of his other creatures before the Golem comes back to give him more mana. He will still get the triggers for all of his creatures dying, but unless he has mana for them without the Golem chain, he likely won't be able to recur them. After you're done and let the Golem trigger resolve, it would then come back and he would choose to proceed or not with the mana chain. Also remember that Pestilence sacrifices itself when there are no creatures left, so unless you can get rid of the Nim Deathmantle it's not a permanent solution.
Edit: This also depends on the creatures he has on board. If they are all lower toughness than the Golem, then there's actually no way you'll be able to stop him with Pestilence. The creatures would all die before the Golem from the 1 damage pings and then he could start the chain as soon as they did.
But only if they all have the same toughness. If they have different toughnesses, the more fragile ones die first, generating triggers, while the tougher ones still stay on the board. He'll have to start the Golem-Mantle chain at this time, if he wants to save those smaller creatures. And if so, you can respond to him starting the chain with more Pestilence activations to get rid of the bigger ones, for which he will then not have the mana to return them, unless he gets it from somewhere else. (Though he will have the 5 mana from the Golem sacrifice, since that is a mana ability and resolves immediately upon activation without using the stack.)
Well, it triggers for the selfsacrifice in the end step, so there's plenty of time to get another creature on the board to stop this from happening. And with the opponent returning creatures with Deathmantle, that's pretty certainly the case.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
He sacrifices Composite Golem once for the five mana, before he announces that he's using four to bring it back with Nim Deathmantle I use Pestilence to kill his creatures (provided I have the mana to do so).... What's stopping him from still bringing back the Golem as much as he wants and still bringing the rest back?
I'm not super concerned with countering this ability, but I do want to understand the combo better. The deck I use most often basically weaponizes my life (with Pestilence and Underworld Coinsmith, combined with a bunch of lifegaining cards) and bypasses my opponents monsters. Literally my biggest nightmare is effects that destroy enchantments lol
Probably good to understand the combo though, for other decks... If I can understand the example with Pestilence I'm sure I can apply that to other counters.
Thank you for the help guys.
The return is a triggered ability and it has to resolve for the opponent to pay for the return of the creature. If you respond to the trigger, all your responses will happen first. The Golem has only that one trigger associated to it, no other trigger can bring back the Golem. If you respond while that specific trigger is still on the stack, he never gets the chance to go through the loop before all responses and resulting triggers are done.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
See below. -MadMage
No, that's wrong.
Composite golem has no triggered abilities, it has an activated mana ability, so it doesn't use the stack. You get the mana immediately after activating it and saccing the Golem. So he has that mana available for any Mantle triggers that come afterwards including the one for the Golem's death itself. But he can't pay until the Mantle trigger for any creature's death to return it resolves.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
1: Golem is sacrificed, providing five mana.
2: I kill creatures with Pestilence.
3: Then he use four mana to bring back anything other than the golem.
Theoretically using more mana, if it's available, to bring back other cards, but not the golem.
Yes, until the Golem's corresponding Mantle trigger resolves. Then he can pay mana to bring it back, if he can still pay.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
edited
One "edited" post deleted, two others merged. Spam warning issued for polluting this thread in such a way.
Please actually edit out, by strikethrough formating, the things you've realized you were wrong about, and spell out your corrected thoughts and identify them as edits, or at least, outright delete the posts that you are not satisfied with instead of leaving them empty.
-MadMage
Also, this one post you left with content in it is more on the strategy advice side than on the rules answer one.
-MadMage
No, the Golem's abilty does not use the stack, because it is a mana ability, and an activated one at that. It resolves immediately upon activation. You cannot respond to it. I don't even know how you come to think of a triggered ability here. Triggered ailities always use the words "when", "whenever", or "at", none of which the Golem's ability uses. That ability has a colon, however, which is a clear indicator of an activated ability, which always have the template [cost]:[effect].
activated ability - check
doesn't have a target - check
could add mana to a mana pool - check
not a loyalty ability - check
-> Golem has a mana ability
That's why the Golem-Deathmantle mana combo works in the first place. Becasue it produces the mana (+1) to return itself and you get that mana in time to use it for the Mantle trigger.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Example:
Your opponent has the Deathmantle, the Composite Golem, and an Eager Cadet. All his lands are tapped, the Golem is the only source of mana avaialble to him right now. You have Pestilence and enough black mana to activate it multiple times.
1) You activate Pestilence once, and put that on the stack. Then you pass.
2) Your opponent responds by sacrificing the Golem, which gives him 5 mana, and puts a Deathmantle trigger for the Golem on the stack.
TOP
Deathmantle trigger (Golem)
Pestilence activation
BOTTOM
3) You respond by activating Pestilence again
TOP
Pestilence activation
Deathmantle trigger (Golem)
Pestilence activation
BOTTOM
4) Neither of you respond (you don't want to, and your opponent doesn't have anything), and Pestilence deals 1 damage to everything, which kills the Cadet, which triggers Deathmantle
TOP
Deathmantle trigger (Cadet)
Deathmantle trigger (Golem)
Pestilence activation
BOTTOM
5) No one responds (you don't want to, and your opponent doesn't have anything), and the Deathmantle trigger resolves. Now your opponent can choose to pay 4 of the 5 mana in his pool to return the Cadet.
5a) If he does, the Cadet returns, but he won't have the mana to pay for the Golem's return later.
5b) If he doesn't, the Cadet stays in the graveyard for good, but he will have the mana to pay for the Golem.
6) Let's say, your opponent is smart and wants the Golem more than the Cadet. So after another round of passing priority, the Golem's return trigger from the Mantle resolves, for which your opponent pays. The Golem returns.
7) Since you cannot really get rid of the Golem now, both of you pass and Pestilence deals 1 damage to everything.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
I think I get it though. Just need to practice actually doing it, and to read the rules on the stack for my own peace of mind.
They could let pestilence resolve and respond to the cadet's Deathmantle Trigger. Then they can make mana and mantle can save them both Cadet and Golem.
Pestilence, in the meantime, would be able to kill remaining creatures in response to the Mana Combo.
In a situation with multiple creatures with varying toughness less than the golem's, pestilence would kill them in "waves." The golem player is able to pick one of these waves and save all the creatures in it, all the ones who died on the same state-check after the resolution of a particular pestilence activation.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)