So it may be early to ask but does the combo of firesong and sunspeaker and spiritualize combo work if you swing F&S into an opponet who blocks with a creature that can kill F&S? Basically, wouls spiritualize go infinite befor F&S dies?
Assuming Spiritualize has affected Firesong and Sunspeaker this turn:
Although Firesong and Sunspeaker would deal combat damage, making the delayed triggered ability from Spiritualize trigger (C.R. 603.2), if Firesong and Sunspeaker has been dealt lethal damage, it will be destroyed as a state-based action (C.R. 704.5g), and this happens even before that ability can go on the stack (C.R. 116.5; C.R. 510.3, especially C.R. 510.3a, applies here after combat damage is dealt), let alone get to resolve — and when it does resolve, Firesong and Sunspeaker will no longer be on the battlefield.
In any case, Spiritualize doesn't give the targeted creature lifelink, and it's not Spiritualize itself that causes a player to gain life, but rather its delayed triggered ability.
EDIT (Jul. 29): Strike out part of the comment for correctness.
Spiritulize the spell doesn't cause you to gain any life at all. It is a delayed triggered ability set up by the spell that does that. So since no white instant/sorcery is causing you to gain life, FaS doesn't trigger at all.
Spiritulize the spell doesn't cause you to gain any life at all. It is a delayed triggered ability set up by the spell that does that. So since no white instant/sorcery is causing you to gain life, FaS doesn't trigger at all.
Okay but if I were to say play, Sacred Nectar, i would then get the infinite loop right? (Spiritualize is a white Instant that is in fact giving me life.)
Spiritulize the spell doesn't cause you to gain any life at all. It is a delayed triggered ability set up by the spell that does that. So since no white instant/sorcery is causing you to gain life, FaS doesn't trigger at all.
Okay but if I were to say play, Sacred Nectar, i would then get the infinite loop right? (Spiritualize is a white Instant that is in fact giving me life.)
Why do you think regular life gain would cause you to go infinite even in this situation? There's still no white instant or sorcery spell that is causing you to gain life every time the creature deals damage, there's only a delayed triggered ability doing it.
Spiritulize the spell doesn't cause you to gain any life at all. It is a delayed triggered ability set up by the spell that does that. So since no white instant/sorcery is causing you to gain life, FaS doesn't trigger at all.
Okay but if I were to say play, Sacred Nectar, i would then get the infinite loop right? (Spiritualize is a white Instant that is in fact giving me life.)
Why do you think regular life gain would cause you to go infinite even in this situation? There's still no white instant or sorcery spell that is causing you to gain life every time the creature deals damage, there's only a delayed triggered ability doing it.
Rule 603.7d If a spell creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that delayed triggered ability is that spell. The controller of that delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that spell as it resolved.
Compare Firesong and Sunspeaker with Pure Intentions, which uses the form "when[ever] a spell or ability ... causes ..."; here, either ability of Pure Intentions can trigger if an ability, not just a spell, meets its trigger condition.
While the source of the delayed triggered ability is the spell, yes, the source of the actual life gain the spell is not.
I am contesting this. Can you provide a rules quote or official ruling stating your claim?
An apt comparison would be a creature dealing damage, vs. an ability of that creature dealing damage.
A common example would be Eidolon of the Great Revel, and Vampiric Link. It is a triggered ability dealing damage, and that trigger's source is a red creature. Anything that checks for that red creature dealing damage will see the trigger dealing damage. You care about the source of the effect dealing damage, not what that effect is.
As per the quoted 603.7d, the source of the lifegain from Spiritualize's trigger is the spell that created it. Thus, a white spell is gaining life, and Firesong and Sunspeaker will trigger.
The trigger of Eidolon of the Great Revels specifically states, that it is the Eidolon doing the damage, and that is where your argument falls apart. It is the difference between a resolving object instructing something else to do something and the object doing it itself. It's like comparing Lightning Bolt dealing damage to Soul's Fire making something else deal damage.
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
609.1. An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect.
A trigger on the stack has only its text as a characteristic, which is why things like protection care about the source of the abilty, so that they can work with them at all.
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
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Although Firesong and Sunspeaker would deal combat damage, making the delayed triggered ability from Spiritualize trigger (C.R. 603.2), if Firesong and Sunspeaker has been dealt lethal damage, it will be destroyed as a state-based action (C.R. 704.5g), and this happens even before that ability can go on the stack (C.R. 116.5; C.R. 510.3, especially C.R. 510.3a, applies here after combat damage is dealt), let alone get to resolve — and when it does resolve, Firesong and Sunspeaker will no longer be on the battlefield.
In any case, Spiritualize doesn't give the targeted creature lifelink
, and it's not Spiritualize itself that causes a player to gain life, but rather its delayed triggered ability.EDIT (Jul. 29): Strike out part of the comment for correctness.
Former Rules Advisor
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(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
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Okay but if I were to say play, Sacred Nectar, i would then get the infinite loop right? (Spiritualize is a white Instant that is in fact giving me life.)
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Why do you think regular life gain would cause you to go infinite even in this situation? There's still no white instant or sorcery spell that is causing you to gain life every time the creature deals damage, there's only a delayed triggered ability doing it.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Rule 603.7d If a spell creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that delayed triggered ability is that spell. The controller of that delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that spell as it resolved.
that is why
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"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
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Well there goes one win con I had, also gonna let people in my thread know it does not work.
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I am contesting this. Can you provide a rules quote or official ruling stating your claim?
An apt comparison would be a creature dealing damage, vs. an ability of that creature dealing damage.
A common example would be Eidolon of the Great Revel, and Vampiric Link. It is a triggered ability dealing damage, and that trigger's source is a red creature. Anything that checks for that red creature dealing damage will see the trigger dealing damage. You care about the source of the effect dealing damage, not what that effect is.
As per the quoted 603.7d, the source of the lifegain from Spiritualize's trigger is the spell that created it. Thus, a white spell is gaining life, and Firesong and Sunspeaker will trigger.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
A trigger on the stack has only its text as a characteristic, which is why things like protection care about the source of the abilty, so that they can work with them at all.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)