Can you copy spells that have already been copied? so if i use twincast on something that i already cast increasing vengeance on? along with that note can i use howl of the horde to copy word of seizing since it is cast before seizing,but seizing has split second so i am confused as to if the copies actually can exist, if it can then i have some fun ideas with that, if not then i guess i won't go in that direction.
Can you copy spells that have already been copied? so if i use twincast on something that i already cast increasing vengeance on?
Yes, that's fine as long as the original or one of the copies is still on the stack and hasn't resolved.
along with that note can i use howl of the horde to copy word of seizing since it is cast before seizing,but seizing has split second so i am confused as to if the copies actually can exist, if it can then i have some fun ideas with that, if not then i guess i won't go in that direction.
Split Second just means you can't cast spells or activate abilities. Triggered abilities still happen, however. So If you cast Howl and then Word, you'll get a second copy of Word.
Yes, you get another chance to respond to your own spell even after you cast a spell in response to it, so you can copy it twice.
In the case of copying a split second spell with a delayed trigger, this works fine because you never actually cast the copy, and split second only stops spells from being cast and nonmana activated abilities from being activated.
A copy of a spell is itself a spell (C.R. 706.10), so it can be copied like any other spell.
Split second keeps players only from casting certain spells or activating certain abilities, and then only while a spell with split second is on the stack (C.R. 702.60a; see also C.R. 702.60b). It doesn't keep triggered abilities (such as the one created by Howl of the Horde) from triggering, or spells from being copied (since copying a spell is not the same as casting it [C.R. 706.10]). Thus, after a Howl of the Horde you control resolves, if you cast Word of Seizing, it can be copied due to Howl of the Horde despite split second.
Yes, you get another chance to respond to your own spell even after you cast a spell in response to it, so you can copy it twice.
In the case of copying a split second spell with a delayed trigger, this works fine because you never actually cast the copy, and split second only stops spells from being cast and nonmana activated abilities from being activated.
So, if i attacked with something,i could then use other copy spells, or copy effects then i could cast word of seizing up to 8 times with just howl of the horde, twincast and reverberate? by copying the howl with twincast, getting 2 more copies that copy a spell 2 times each, cast reverb,getting 4 copies of that and copying howl again t hen casting word of seizing?
A copy of a spell is itself a spell (C.R. 706.10), so it can be copied like any other spell.
Split second keeps players only from casting certain spells or activating certain abilities, and then only while a spell with split second is on the stack (C.R. 702.60a; see also C.R. 702.60b). It doesn't keep triggered abilities (such as the one created by Howl of the Horde) from triggering, or spells from being copied (since copying a spell is not the same as casting it [C.R. 706.10]). Thus, after a Howl of the Horde you control resolves, if you cast Word of Seizing, it can be copied due to Howl of the Horde despite split second.
So with three other copy spells, and assuming i attacked with a creature that turn, i could get 16 copies of word of seizing with just a twincast and reverberate and increasing vengeance?
Yes, you get another chance to respond to your own spell even after you cast a spell in response to it, so you can copy it twice.
In the case of copying a split second spell with a delayed trigger, this works fine because you never actually cast the copy, and split second only stops spells from being cast and nonmana activated abilities from being activated.
So, if i attacked with something,i could then use other copy spells, or copy effects then i could cast word of seizing up to 8 times with just howl of the horde, twincast and reverberate? by copying the howl with twincast, getting 2 more copies that copy a spell 2 times each, cast reverb,getting 4 copies of that and copying howl again t hen casting word of seizing?
You'd have to cast Howl, hold priority, cast Twincast targeting Howl, hold priority, cast Reverberate targeting Howl.
So you'd have 6 "copy the next instant or sorcery" triggers, then you cast Word and it gets copied 6 times giving you 7 targets.
Yes, you get another chance to respond to your own spell even after you cast a spell in response to it, so you can copy it twice.
In the case of copying a split second spell with a delayed trigger, this works fine because you never actually cast the copy, and split second only stops spells from being cast and nonmana activated abilities from being activated.
So, if i attacked with something,i could then use other copy spells, or copy effects then i could cast word of seizing up to 8 times with just howl of the horde, twincast and reverberate? by copying the howl with twincast, getting 2 more copies that copy a spell 2 times each, cast reverb,getting 4 copies of that and copying howl again t hen casting word of seizing?
You'd have to cast Howl, hold priority, cast Twincast targeting Howl, hold priority, cast Reverberate targeting Howl.
So you'd have 6 "copy the next instant or sorcery" triggers, then you cast Word and it gets copied 6 times giving you 7 targets.
Wouldn't it be 8 copies? Howl of the horde, if i attacked copies twice, so if i cast twincast, there are two twincasts targeting howl of the horde, so there are 2 more howl of the hordes, which is 4 copies for the reverb targeting the howl of the horde, so there are 4 copies of howl of the horde, each copying the next spell an additional time so 2 copies of the next instant or sorcery, 2 times each
Yes, you get another chance to respond to your own spell even after you cast a spell in response to it, so you can copy it twice.
In the case of copying a split second spell with a delayed trigger, this works fine because you never actually cast the copy, and split second only stops spells from being cast and nonmana activated abilities from being activated.
So, if i attacked with something,i could then use other copy spells, or copy effects then i could cast word of seizing up to 8 times with just howl of the horde, twincast and reverberate? by copying the howl with twincast, getting 2 more copies that copy a spell 2 times each, cast reverb,getting 4 copies of that and copying howl again t hen casting word of seizing?
You'd have to cast Howl, hold priority, cast Twincast targeting Howl, hold priority, cast Reverberate targeting Howl.
So you'd have 6 "copy the next instant or sorcery" triggers, then you cast Word and it gets copied 6 times giving you 7 targets.
Wouldn't it be 8 copies? Howl of the horde, if i attacked copies twice, so if i cast twincast, there are two twincasts targeting howl of the horde, so there are 2 more howl of the hordes, which is 4 copies for the reverb targeting the howl of the horde, so there are 4 copies of howl of the horde, each copying the next spell an additional time so 2 copies of the next instant or sorcery, 2 times each
If you cast Twincast, it needs a target. Howl won't copy it unless you've let it resolve and then there's nothing for Twincast to target.
Howl - copies twice when it resolves.
Twincast - copies Howl, so copies twice when it resolves.
Reverb - copies Howl, so copies twice when it resolves.
Neither Twincast nor Reverb will be copied because Howl hasn't resolved yet.
Yes, you get another chance to respond to your own spell even after you cast a spell in response to it, so you can copy it twice.
In the case of copying a split second spell with a delayed trigger, this works fine because you never actually cast the copy, and split second only stops spells from being cast and nonmana activated abilities from being activated.
So, if i attacked with something,i could then use other copy spells, or copy effects then i could cast word of seizing up to 8 times with just howl of the horde, twincast and reverberate? by copying the howl with twincast, getting 2 more copies that copy a spell 2 times each, cast reverb,getting 4 copies of that and copying howl again t hen casting word of seizing?
You'd have to cast Howl, hold priority, cast Twincast targeting Howl, hold priority, cast Reverberate targeting Howl.
So you'd have 6 "copy the next instant or sorcery" triggers, then you cast Word and it gets copied 6 times giving you 7 targets.
Wouldn't it be 8 copies? Howl of the horde, if i attacked copies twice, so if i cast twincast, there are two twincasts targeting howl of the horde, so there are 2 more howl of the hordes, which is 4 copies for the reverb targeting the howl of the horde, so there are 4 copies of howl of the horde, each copying the next spell an additional time so 2 copies of the next instant or sorcery, 2 times each
If you cast Twincast, it needs a target. Howl won't copy it unless you've let it resolve and then there's nothing for Twincast to target.
Howl - copies twice when it resolves.
Twincast - copies Howl, so copies twice when it resolves.
Reverb - copies Howl, so copies twice when it resolves.
Neither Twincast nor Reverb will be copied because Howl hasn't resolved yet.
Ok, that makes sense, that at least clarifies some things, so i would need need to cast howl, copies next spell twice, cast twin cast targeting howl,let that resolve first, i get 2 copies of howl, i then cast reverb, getting 4 copies of howl, i now have 6 copies of howl, word of seizing then gets copied 6 times, so i have to wait until each spell resolves cast after howl for it to work
Holding priority cast Twincast targeting howl
_top of stack_
Twincast
Howl
_bottom of stack_
Let Twincast resolve. Only makes 1 copy of howl because no copies of howl have resolved.
_top of stack_
HowlCopy1
Howl
_bottom of stack_
Let HowlCopy1 resolve. HowlCopy1 effect active.
_top of stack_
Howl
_bottom of stack_
Cast Reverb targeting Howl, triggering HowlCopy1.
_top of stack_
HowlCopy1 Trigger copying Reverb
Reverb targeting Howl
Howl
_bottom of stack_
So when the HowlCopy1 trigger resolves you get a reverb copy(or 2 with raid) that can also target Howl. Let the Reverbs resolve and you will have 3(or 4) Howl effects total, with the original Howl still on the stack.
The key thing is that first copy spell that targets howl will not have a howl effect.
Yes, that's fine as long as the original or one of the copies is still on the stack and hasn't resolved.
Split Second just means you can't cast spells or activate abilities. Triggered abilities still happen, however. So If you cast Howl and then Word, you'll get a second copy of Word.
In the case of copying a split second spell with a delayed trigger, this works fine because you never actually cast the copy, and split second only stops spells from being cast and nonmana activated abilities from being activated.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Split second keeps players only from casting certain spells or activating certain abilities, and then only while a spell with split second is on the stack (C.R. 702.60a; see also C.R. 702.60b). It doesn't keep triggered abilities (such as the one created by Howl of the Horde) from triggering, or spells from being copied (since copying a spell is not the same as casting it [C.R. 706.10]). Thus, after a Howl of the Horde you control resolves, if you cast Word of Seizing, it can be copied due to Howl of the Horde despite split second.
You'd have to cast Howl, hold priority, cast Twincast targeting Howl, hold priority, cast Reverberate targeting Howl.
So you'd have 6 "copy the next instant or sorcery" triggers, then you cast Word and it gets copied 6 times giving you 7 targets.
If you cast Twincast, it needs a target. Howl won't copy it unless you've let it resolve and then there's nothing for Twincast to target.
Howl - copies twice when it resolves.
Twincast - copies Howl, so copies twice when it resolves.
Reverb - copies Howl, so copies twice when it resolves.
Neither Twincast nor Reverb will be copied because Howl hasn't resolved yet.
Cast howl.
_top of stack_
Howl
_bottom of stack_
Holding priority cast Twincast targeting howl
_top of stack_
Twincast
Howl
_bottom of stack_
Let Twincast resolve. Only makes 1 copy of howl because no copies of howl have resolved.
_top of stack_
HowlCopy1
Howl
_bottom of stack_
Let HowlCopy1 resolve. HowlCopy1 effect active.
_top of stack_
Howl
_bottom of stack_
Cast Reverb targeting Howl, triggering HowlCopy1.
_top of stack_
HowlCopy1 Trigger copying Reverb
Reverb targeting Howl
Howl
_bottom of stack_
So when the HowlCopy1 trigger resolves you get a reverb copy(or 2 with raid) that can also target Howl. Let the Reverbs resolve and you will have 3(or 4) Howl effects total, with the original Howl still on the stack.
The key thing is that first copy spell that targets howl will not have a howl effect.