Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Assuming you mean Blood Moon, not "Blood Sun", yes.
To determine whether Lotus Vale's replacement effect applies as it enters the battlefield, Blood Moon is taken into account (C.R. 614.12). Because of this, since Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield with its land types changed to Mountain (so without the abilities it normally has), it would not have its first ability (and it wouldn't have its normal mana ability either). See also this thread.
To determine whether Lotus Vale's replacement effect applies as it enters the battlefield, Blood Sun is taken into account (C.R. 614.12). Because of this, Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield without its first ability due to Blood Sun. See also this thread.
EDIT: See comment 4.
EDIT (Mar. 14): Rewrite post to make old and new text clearer.
I suppose you mean Blood Moon. The answer is currently yes, the effect is ignored, Lotus Vale simply enters as a Mountain and you don't have to sacrifice anything for it. This is an application of a recent rules change that happened in 2017. Lotus Vale's ability is a static ability with a replacement effect that modifies the event of it entering the battlefield. That effect is applied before the Vale actually is on the battlefield; formerly, Blood Moon didn't affect it at that time and you would still have to sacrifice lands. But now, after the 2017 change, effects like Blood Moon's that would make it so the permanent wouldn't have the ability on the battlefield, are taken into account to see if the replacement effect should apply, and so it doesn't apply.
EDIT : Hadn't seen the new Blood Sun card, sorry. As far as the ability asking you to sacrifice lands not working, it's the same thing, though, my explanation holds.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
According to this rule, yes, since Lotus Vale would not have the ability that creates the ETB replacement effect, so there would be no effect to apply.
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities that would apply to it once it’s on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
Edit:
@MadMageQ and peteroupc Blood Sun is a newly spoiled card from Rivals of Ixalan.
No I actually mean the new card Blood Sun. Guess I should have specified that.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
"If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard"
This ability is a state based action that requires no triggers and happens before the land is allowed to enter, and is therefore not a permanent affected by blood sun nor blood moon. Same goes for Scorched Ruins. So the recent price spikes must be for another reason, or people don't understand the interaction.
"If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard"
This ability is a state based action that requires no triggers and happens before the land is allowed to enter, and is therefore not a permanent affected by blood sun nor blood moon. Same goes for Scorched Ruins. So the recent price spikes must be for another reason, or people don't understand the interaction.
No you are incorrect, with the recent rule change that happened a few months ago you now apply continuous effects from other permanents that would apply to the replacement effect. So Lotus Vale has a replacement effect that modifies how it enters the battlefield, but Blood Sun has a continuous effect that would apply to the permanent the Lotus Vale would become. So since by the new rules that continuous effect would apply, the ability would be removed and you would not have to sacrifice any lands as the Vale enters.
Also the ability is not a state based action, it's a replacement effect.
So based on what I've read here (and heard some other judges say) this is my understanding of how playing Lotus Vale happens. Please correct me if I've got it wrong. I'm definitely no judge, so I expect at least part of this to be wrong
1.Lotus Vale is in your hand, where it has no abilities.
2.You announce that you are playing Lotus Vale. Since Lotus Vale is a land, it changes zones from your hand directly to the battlefield.
3.As the Lotus Vale is changing zones, it is simultaneously in both your hand AND the battlefield, in a weird, quantum-mechanics-y kind of way. In this instant, the game checks for continuous effects that will be relevant to the permanent it will become. If Blood Sun is in play, or any other continuous effect that could apply to Lotus Vale is currently in effect, it is applied to Lotus Vale now.
4.The game *then* tries to end the quantum shenanigans such that Lotus Vale is on the battlefield and nowhere else. This action is known as "entering the battlefield". In the process of doing so, the game checks the text of Lotus Vale to see if it specifies anything about how it should enter the battlefield.
4A. If Blood Sun is in play, it has already erased all of Lotus Vale's text except for the mana ability, so the game sees nothing that would prevent it from entering the battlefield normally.
5A. Lotus Vale enters the battlefield as a permanent. Weird quantum shenanigans cease.
OR
4B. If Blood Sun is NOT in play, the game notices the text that calls for a replacement, so it decides that instead of "entering the battlefield", the effect that should happen is "sacrificing two lands".
5B. You sacrifice two lands unless you are unable to.
6B. The game continues to do what Lotus Vale asks. Depending on whether you were able to sacrifice two lands or not, Lotus Vale either enters the battlefield, or gets put into the graveyard. Either way, weird quantum shenanigans cease.
Since Lotus Vale, with it's current errata, states:If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.
The way it's worded now sounds like it is no longer an ability. Lotus Vale does not enter the battlefield until you sac the two lands, therefore it is unaffected by Sun Moon
Since Lotus Vale, with it's current errata, states:If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.
The way it's worded now sounds like it is no longer an ability. Lotus Vale does not enter the battlefield until you sac the two lands, therefore it is unaffected by Sun Moon
The text you cited on Lotus Vale is an ability like any other (just as the paragraph on Temple Garden starting with "As Temple Garden enters the battlefield..." is an ability or the paragraph on Blackcleave Cliffs starting with "Blackcleave Cliffs enters..." is an ability) (C.R. 113.1a). Even though Lotus Vale's first ability may be detrimental, that doesn't make it any less of an ability (C.R. 113.2a).
EDIT (Nov. 21, 2020): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
It's a static ability that creates a replacement effect.
112.3d Static abilities are written as statements. They’re simply true. Static abilities create continuous effects which are active while the permanent with the ability is on the battlefield and has the ability, or while the object with the ability is in the appropriate zone. See rule 604, “Handling Static Abilities.”
604.2. Static abilities create continuous effects, some of which are prevention effects or replacement effects. These effects are active as long as the permanent with the ability remains on the battlefield and has the ability, or as long as the object with the ability remains in the appropriate zone, as described in rule 112.6.
It's not an ability, it's a replacement effect. IF Vale would ETB, sac 2 untapped lands INSTEAD.
All three abilities I mentioned in comment 11 involve replacement effects (C.R. 614.1a, 614.1c, and 614.1d, respectively). And all three are abilities under the rules (C.R. 113.1a).
EDIT (Nov. 21, 2020): Correction. One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
112.1a. An ability is a characteristic an object has that lets it affect the game. An object's abilities are defined by its rules text or by the effect that created it. Abilities can also be granted to objects by rules or effects. (Effects that do so use the words "has," "have," "gains," or "gain.") Abilities generate effects. (See rule 609, "Effects.")
609.1. An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect.
So the text on Lotus Vale can only be an ability, because it is text. The replacement effect is what this ability causes to happen in the game. Without the ability, the effect doesn't happen.
The part that confuses me is that Lotus Vale's ability (the one that causes the replacement effect) is supposed to happen instead of entering the battlefield - which sounds like it should mean that Lotus Vale isn't on the battlefield when it happens. How does Blood Sun remove an ability from a card which is not yet on the battlefield?
The part that confuses me is that Lotus Vale's ability (the one that causes the replacement effect) is supposed to happen instead of entering the battlefield - which sounds like it should mean that Lotus Vale isn't on the battlefield when it happens. How does Blood Sun remove an ability from a card which is not yet on the battlefield?
They recently changed the rules so that Blood Moon and now Blood Sun will have this effect
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities that would apply to it once it’s on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
Basically the game now looks forward in time to how it would exist in order to determine if replacement abilities should apply. Since it would lose all abilities it doesn't apply.
The part that confuses me is that Lotus Vale's ability (the one that causes the replacement effect) is supposed to happen instead of entering the battlefield - which sounds like it should mean that Lotus Vale isn't on the battlefield when it happens. How does Blood Sun remove an ability from a card which is not yet on the battlefield?
They recently changed the rules so that Blood Moon and now Blood Sun will have this effect
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities that would apply to it once it’s on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
Basically the game now looks forward in time to how it would exist in order to determine if replacement abilities should apply. Since it would lose all abilities it doesn't apply.
ah. That's super weird, but ok
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Thanks in advance.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Assuming you mean Blood Moon, not "Blood Sun",yes.To determine whether Lotus Vale's replacement effect applies as it enters the battlefield, Blood Moon is taken into account (C.R. 614.12). Because of this, since Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield with its land types changed to Mountain (so without the abilities it normally has), it would not have its first ability (and it wouldn't have its normal mana ability either). See also this thread.To determine whether Lotus Vale's replacement effect applies as it enters the battlefield, Blood Sun is taken into account (C.R. 614.12). Because of this, Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield without its first ability due to Blood Sun. See also this thread.
EDIT: See comment 4.
EDIT (Mar. 14): Rewrite post to make old and new text clearer.
EDIT : Hadn't seen the new Blood Sun card, sorry. As far as the ability asking you to sacrifice lands not working, it's the same thing, though, my explanation holds.
Edit:
@MadMageQ and peteroupc
Blood Sun is a newly spoiled card from Rivals of Ixalan.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
"If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard"
This ability is a state based action that requires no triggers and happens before the land is allowed to enter, and is therefore not a permanent affected by blood sun nor blood moon. Same goes for Scorched Ruins. So the recent price spikes must be for another reason, or people don't understand the interaction.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].
No you are incorrect, with the recent rule change that happened a few months ago you now apply continuous effects from other permanents that would apply to the replacement effect. So Lotus Vale has a replacement effect that modifies how it enters the battlefield, but Blood Sun has a continuous effect that would apply to the permanent the Lotus Vale would become. So since by the new rules that continuous effect would apply, the ability would be removed and you would not have to sacrifice any lands as the Vale enters.
Also the ability is not a state based action, it's a replacement effect.
1.Lotus Vale is in your hand, where it has no abilities.
2.You announce that you are playing Lotus Vale. Since Lotus Vale is a land, it changes zones from your hand directly to the battlefield.
3.As the Lotus Vale is changing zones, it is simultaneously in both your hand AND the battlefield, in a weird, quantum-mechanics-y kind of way. In this instant, the game checks for continuous effects that will be relevant to the permanent it will become. If Blood Sun is in play, or any other continuous effect that could apply to Lotus Vale is currently in effect, it is applied to Lotus Vale now.
4.The game *then* tries to end the quantum shenanigans such that Lotus Vale is on the battlefield and nowhere else. This action is known as "entering the battlefield". In the process of doing so, the game checks the text of Lotus Vale to see if it specifies anything about how it should enter the battlefield.
4A. If Blood Sun is in play, it has already erased all of Lotus Vale's text except for the mana ability, so the game sees nothing that would prevent it from entering the battlefield normally.
5A. Lotus Vale enters the battlefield as a permanent. Weird quantum shenanigans cease.
OR
4B. If Blood Sun is NOT in play, the game notices the text that calls for a replacement, so it decides that instead of "entering the battlefield", the effect that should happen is "sacrificing two lands".
5B. You sacrifice two lands unless you are unable to.
6B. The game continues to do what Lotus Vale asks. Depending on whether you were able to sacrifice two lands or not, Lotus Vale either enters the battlefield, or gets put into the graveyard. Either way, weird quantum shenanigans cease.
So... how badly wrong did I get it?
The way it's worded now sounds like it is no longer an ability. Lotus Vale does not enter the battlefield until you sac the two lands, therefore it is unaffected by Sun Moon
EDIT (Nov. 21, 2020): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
EDIT (Nov. 21, 2020): Correction. One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
That's a messed up card
112.1a. An ability is a characteristic an object has that lets it affect the game. An object's abilities are defined by its rules text or by the effect that created it. Abilities can also be granted to objects by rules or effects. (Effects that do so use the words "has," "have," "gains," or "gain.") Abilities generate effects. (See rule 609, "Effects.")
609.1. An effect is something that happens in the game as a result of a spell or ability. When a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability resolves, it may create one or more one-shot or continuous effects. Static abilities may create one or more continuous effects. Text itself is never an effect.
So the text on Lotus Vale can only be an ability, because it is text. The replacement effect is what this ability causes to happen in the game. Without the ability, the effect doesn't happen.
They recently changed the rules so that Blood Moon and now Blood Sun will have this effect
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities that would apply to it once it’s on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
Basically the game now looks forward in time to how it would exist in order to determine if replacement abilities should apply. Since it would lose all abilities it doesn't apply.
ah. That's super weird, but ok