Question in context; I have an Oracle of mul daya in play, the top card of my library revealed. I put a Mosswort Bridge from my hand into play. Hideaway triggers. The land ETB tapped and I look at the top 4 cards. Do I need to let my opponent know which of the four cards I decide to exile? Do I tell my opponent if he or she asks that I exile the card number X from the top regardless of me picking the revealed card or not?
Question out of context; does the player who controls the hideaway trigger have to tell the opponent which of the four cards he decides te exile?
702.73a Hideaway represents a static ability and a triggered ability. “Hideaway” means “This permanent enters the battlefield tapped” and “When this permanent enters the battlefield, look at the top four cards of your library. Exile one of them face down and put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. The exiled card gains ‘Any player who has controlled the permanent that exiled this card may look at this card in the exile zone.’”
Even though you look at a given number of cards from the top of your library with the hideaway ability (C.R. 702.75a), doing so neither moves cards out of your library nor changes the top card of your library (C.R. 701.16b, 701.16d, 401.2). In this scenario, in general, it will be known to other players at least—
whether the top card of the library was exiled this way, in which case the new top card is immediately revealed before you put the remaining cards on the bottom of your library (the words "exile" and "put" on hideaway's rules text [C.R. 702.75a] indicate sequential actions; under C.R. 608.2c, an ability's instructions are carried out "in the order written" and the "rules of English [are applied] to the text" of that ability when doing so), or
whether a card other than the top card of the library was exiled this way, in which case the identity of that card is not revealed to any other player (C.R. 701.16, especially C.R. 701.16d) (the comprehensive rules have no answer to the question on whether other players will know whether that card was the second, third, etc. card from the top of the library, if two or more cards were looked at due to hideaway).
EDIT: Clarifications after comment 5, then comment 7, then comment 13 was posted; correctness edit after comment 17 was posted.
EDIT (Feb. 8, 2019): Edit rule citation.
EDIT (Apr. 20, 2022): Edited, including to conform with announced rule update for Streets of New Capenna.
So in all cases, regardless of what cards are revealed/known, opponent will know if was the top, 2nd down, 3rd down or 4th down card that was chosen before you put the rest on bottom? Or is it only when the top card is revealed that they can destinguish between revealed vs. could be any of the not revealed?
Thank you for your fast and thorough response. If I understand correctly the opponent learns either of two things: 1) I have exiled the top card + he sees one of the cards I put on the bottom or 2) I have exiled one of the other 3 cards.
Allow me to sketch a different scenario. It's post combat mainphase. My opponent uses unexpectedly absent with X = 2 to put a squire two cards from the top of my library. I put a Mosswort Bridge into play. Hideaway triggers. I pick the squire from the 4 cards I get to look at.
Will my opponent be able to figure out that its the squire that is lurking dangerously from under the bridge?
Before I edited comment 2 in response to your question, it said "if the latter is true", namely, if one of the other three cardsa card other than the top card of the library is exiled this way, "the identity of that card is not revealed to any other player", in other words, it is not revealed whether that card was the second, third or fourth card from the top of the library.
Boundless Surge:
Even assuming further that you control Oracle of Mul Daya, when a card is put into a player's library just beneath another card in that library, the top X plus one cards (other than the top card revealed due to Oracle of Mul Daya) are not revealed (the general rule under C.R. 401.2 applies here, except the effect of Oracle of Mul Daya's second ability, among other effects, overrides that rule in part [C.R. 101.1]).
EDIT (Oct. 5): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Dec. 31, 2018; Feb. 8, 2019): Edited.
EDIT (Apr. 20, 2022): Edited to conform with announced rule update for Streets of New Capenna.
Your opponent will not know at all which card you chose, even if you choose the top card of your library.
While you are making your the top 4 cards of your library are "frozen" so to speak. The top card will always be the top card (whatever it was) even though you have all 4 cards in your hand making a decision. No cards are physically shown to your opponent while you make your choice. You may even move the cards around in your hand if you like (so long as you keep these 4 cards separate from your actual hand of cards) as you mull over the process of which card to exile and which 3 take a trip to the bottom of your library. Once your decision has been made, you exile your card, you move 3 to the bottom of your library, then you reveal the new top card of your library and you continue play.
Anyone looking for a more official ruling on how cards with these abilities interact, look no further than here to find your answer. A Courser of Kruphix on the battlefield and you resolve a Dig Through Time.
Your opponent will not know at all which card you chose, even if you choose the top card of your library.
While you are making your the top 4 cards of your library are "frozen" so to speak. The top card will always be the top card (whatever it was) even though you have all 4 cards in your hand making a decision. No cards are physically shown to your opponent while you make your choice. You may even move the cards around in your hand if you like (so long as you keep these 4 cards separate from your actual hand of cards) as you mull over the process of which card to exile and which 3 take a trip to the bottom of your library. Once your decision has been made, you exile your card, you move 3 to the bottom of your library, then you reveal the new top card of your library and you continue play.
Anyone looking for a more official ruling on how cards with these abilities interact, look no further than here to find your answer. A Courser of Kruphix on the battlefield and you resolve a Dig Through Time.
I disagree. Dig Through Time differs from hideaway in that the action of putting some cards into the hand and others on the bottom of the library is a simultaneous action (the single action verb "put" is used here), so that there won't be a "time" (as far as the game is concerned) in which one of those cards is revealed due to Courser of Kruphix (see also C.R. 401.4). On the other hand, in hideaway, first its controller must "exile" a card looked at by that ability, then must "put" the rest on the bottom of the library (C.R. 702.75a) -- here, there are two action verbs, so two sequential actions are carried out, so that if the top card of the library is exiled this way, the new top card is immediately revealed before the remaining cards are put on the bottom of the library. (See also my comment 2.)
EDIT (Feb. 8, 2019): Edit rule citation.
EDIT (Apr. 20, 2022): One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
here, there are two action verbs, so two sequential actions are carried out, so that if the top card of the library is exiled this way, the new top card is immediately revealed before the remaining cards are put on the bottom of the library.
It's an automatic thing. You make your choices and the the library goes instantly from current to one in exile and the rest on the bottom of your library. There is never a moment in between those two choices that will allow anyone to the top of the deck. Once the trigger has resolved you then reveal what is now the new top card of your library.
It's an automatic thing. You make your choices and the the library goes instantly from current to one in exile and the rest on the bottom of your library. There is never a moment in between those two choices that will allow anyone to the top of the deck. Once the trigger has resolved you then reveal what is now the new top card of your library.
The effects of Oracle of Mul Daya and Courser of Kruphix revealing the card of their controller's library are continuous effects of static abilities (C.R. 604.1, 611.3) so they apply "at all times" those permanents are on the battlefield (C.R. 611.3b, 112.6), including between two actions that are not simultaneous (such as the "exile" and "put" in the hideaway ability) (see also this thread, which involves a similar situation with the card Doomsday).
I personally don't see how the Doomsday example you provided suggests anything at all this example.
With that being said, this is a simultaneous action. Card templates for actions that are meant to be broken up will use the word then to separate actions. This is indeed a simultaneous action and that's why the cards end up in exile and the bottom of the deck at the same time. Only after you have resolved the trigger completely do you start revealing the top card again.
Keep in mind that this is a corner case in magic, and while the CR is here maintain rules it's not written with specific corner cases (like this) in mind.
tl;dr version is this: In this scenario, while you are resolving your hideaway trigger your opponent will not know what you choose, nor will any card be revealed to them in the process of choosing a card to exile, three cards to put on the bottom of your library, and simultaneously performing those actions. Once the trigger has resolved, you then start revealing your top card again.
I have spoken at length with other judges on this issue and that is the answer that they arrived at as well. If you have any questions I encourage you to drop in at http://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/ and have a discussion there.
Card templates for actions that are meant to be broken up will use the word then to separate actions.
In general, two actions are sequential, not simultaneous, if they use two action verbs in their text (for example, "exile" and "put" in the hideaway ability or in the card Doomsday), rather than if they use the word "then", "and", or separate sentences (as in Doomsday) (also, compare Sarkhan's Rage with Char and see this thread). One exception to this is if the effect uses the word "simultaneously" (an example is Goblin Welder). If the actions at issue in the hideaway ability were simultaneous, it would have been worded something like: "Simultaneously, exile one of them face down and put the rest..."; however, the question of whether hideaway ought to be worded this way is not within the scope of this forum and is a decision for the rules manager.
I personally don't see how the Doomsday example you provided suggests anything at all this example.
With that being said, this is a simultaneous action. Card templates for actions that are meant to be broken up will use the word then to separate actions. This is indeed a simultaneous action and that's why the cards end up in exile and the bottom of the deck at the same time. Only after you have resolved the trigger completely do you start revealing the top card again.
Keep in mind that this is a corner case in magic, and while the CR is here maintain rules it's not written with specific corner cases (like this) in mind.
tl;dr version is this: In this scenario, while you are resolving your hideaway trigger your opponent will not know what you choose, nor will any card be revealed to them in the process of choosing a card to exile, three cards to put on the bottom of your library, and simultaneously performing those actions. Once the trigger has resolved, you then start revealing your top card again.
I have spoken at length with other judges on this issue and that is the answer that they arrived at as well. If you have any questions I encourage you to drop in at http://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/ and have a discussion there.
While I can see why one could argue about the actions being simultaneous or not, the part about waiting to reveal cards again until the trigger has fully resolved is clearly wrong. To prove this, just look at the last ruling of Oracle of Mul Daya:
When playing with the top card of your library revealed, if an effect tells you to draw several cards, reveal each one before you draw it.
Drawing multiple cards is clearly sequential, and the fact that you are to reveal each new top card card means, that you don't wait until the spell/ability is finished resolving. You may be confusing this with the second to last ruling on the Oracle, but that is about activating an ability/casting a spell, not resolving one, so it doesn't apply.
And for the record, I agree with peteroupc, that exiling the chosen card and putting the rest on the bottom of the library for hideaway are sequential. For the reasons he stated.
I'm still unclear why the opponent should not know which of the 4 cards is exiled. Not looking at the face of the card, but if it was top, 2nd, 3rd, 4th card down. Leave revealing top of library effects out of it. When hideaway triggers can I not distinguish between the 4 cards at all? How would I be able, then, to tell that my opponent is looking at the top 4 cards and not 4 cards from random locations throughout the library?
I'm still unclear why the opponent should not know which of the 4 cards is exiled. Not looking at the face of the card, but if it was top, 2nd, 3rd, 4th card down. Leave revealing top of library effects out of it. When hideaway triggers can I not distinguish between the 4 cards at all? How would I be able, then, to tell that my opponent is looking at the top 4 cards and not 4 cards from random locations throughout the library?
While looking at the top four cards of a library doesn't, as far as the game is concerned, move those cards out of that library (C.R. 701.16b, 701.16d) or change their order (C.R. 401.2), that doesn't preclude them from being temporarily and physically moved out of the pile of cards making up the library for the purpose of looking at them (see also the meaning of "looking at" a card in C.R. 701.16d).
EDIT (Apr. 20, 2022): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
I'm asking within the abstraction of the game rules, not what is practically obvious in an actual game.
While my opponent is looking at the top four cards I can tell that those cards are the top four and not any other 4. I think it should follow, then, that among those 4 I could also tell which of them is the top, 2nd down, etc. Why not?
If I can...
If the actions are simultaneous the game goes from the top 4 cards being looked at in one moment and the next moment one card is exiled with the other three on the bottom of the library. It this case it makes sense that I would not be able to tell which card was chosen, even if I knew which card was top, 2nd, 3rd, 4th during the looking.
If the actions are sequential, though, and there is a moment where the exiled card has been chosen and the other 3 are still on top of the library, what prevents me from keep track of which of the 4 cards are the 3 cards that remain?
If the actions are sequential, though, and there is a moment where the exiled card has been chosen and the other 3 are still on top of the library, what prevents me from keep track of which of the 4 cards are the 3 cards that remain?
Unfortunately, the comprehensive rules provide no clear answer -- this appears to be a gap in those rules.
I recall a ruling that came out at the time of Ravnica 1, that said when a player is scrying or doing the literal equivalent, other players may know if cards go to the bottom of the library, but not their relative order on either the top or bottom. I can't find it now.
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peteroupc: I see the point you are making. I've posted this question with magicjudges to get an [O]fficial answer considering that even the community has differing views on the subject. I will post the answer here when it is replied to.
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Question in context; I have an Oracle of mul daya in play, the top card of my library revealed. I put a Mosswort Bridge from my hand into play. Hideaway triggers. The land ETB tapped and I look at the top 4 cards. Do I need to let my opponent know which of the four cards I decide to exile? Do I tell my opponent if he or she asks that I exile the card number X from the top regardless of me picking the revealed card or not?
Question out of context; does the player who controls the hideaway trigger have to tell the opponent which of the four cards he decides te exile?
(Relevant for unexpectedly absent too)
702.73a Hideaway represents a static ability and a triggered ability. “Hideaway” means “This permanent enters the battlefield tapped” and “When this permanent enters the battlefield, look at the top four cards of your library. Exile one of them face down and put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. The exiled card gains ‘Any player who has controlled the permanent that exiled this card may look at this card in the exile zone.’”
EDIT: Clarifications after comment 5, then comment 7, then comment 13 was posted; correctness edit after comment 17 was posted.
EDIT (Feb. 8, 2019): Edit rule citation.
EDIT (Apr. 20, 2022): Edited, including to conform with announced rule update for Streets of New Capenna.
Allow me to sketch a different scenario. It's post combat mainphase. My opponent uses unexpectedly absent with X = 2 to put a squire two cards from the top of my library. I put a Mosswort Bridge into play. Hideaway triggers. I pick the squire from the 4 cards I get to look at.
Will my opponent be able to figure out that its the squire that is lurking dangerously from under the bridge?
Before I edited comment 2 in response to your question, it said "if the latter is true", namely, if
one of the other three cardsa card other than the top card of the library is exiled this way, "the identity of that card is not revealed to any other player", in other words, it is not revealed whether that card was the second, third or fourth card from the top of the library.Boundless Surge:
Even assuming further that you control Oracle of Mul Daya, when a card is put into a player's library just beneath another card in that library, the top X plus one cards (other than the top card revealed due to Oracle of Mul Daya) are not revealed (the general rule under C.R. 401.2 applies here, except the effect of Oracle of Mul Daya's second ability, among other effects, overrides that rule in part [C.R. 101.1]).
EDIT (Oct. 5): Correctness edit.
EDIT (Dec. 31, 2018; Feb. 8, 2019): Edited.
EDIT (Apr. 20, 2022): Edited to conform with announced rule update for Streets of New Capenna.
While you are making your the top 4 cards of your library are "frozen" so to speak. The top card will always be the top card (whatever it was) even though you have all 4 cards in your hand making a decision. No cards are physically shown to your opponent while you make your choice. You may even move the cards around in your hand if you like (so long as you keep these 4 cards separate from your actual hand of cards) as you mull over the process of which card to exile and which 3 take a trip to the bottom of your library. Once your decision has been made, you exile your card, you move 3 to the bottom of your library, then you reveal the new top card of your library and you continue play.
Anyone looking for a more official ruling on how cards with these abilities interact, look no further than here to find your answer. A Courser of Kruphix on the battlefield and you resolve a Dig Through Time.
EDIT (Feb. 8, 2019): Edit rule citation.
EDIT (Apr. 20, 2022): One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
It's an automatic thing. You make your choices and the the library goes instantly from current to one in exile and the rest on the bottom of your library. There is never a moment in between those two choices that will allow anyone to the top of the deck. Once the trigger has resolved you then reveal what is now the new top card of your library.
With that being said, this is a simultaneous action. Card templates for actions that are meant to be broken up will use the word then to separate actions. This is indeed a simultaneous action and that's why the cards end up in exile and the bottom of the deck at the same time. Only after you have resolved the trigger completely do you start revealing the top card again.
Keep in mind that this is a corner case in magic, and while the CR is here maintain rules it's not written with specific corner cases (like this) in mind.
tl;dr version is this: In this scenario, while you are resolving your hideaway trigger your opponent will not know what you choose, nor will any card be revealed to them in the process of choosing a card to exile, three cards to put on the bottom of your library, and simultaneously performing those actions. Once the trigger has resolved, you then start revealing your top card again.
I have spoken at length with other judges on this issue and that is the answer that they arrived at as well. If you have any questions I encourage you to drop in at http://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/ and have a discussion there.
While I can see why one could argue about the actions being simultaneous or not, the part about waiting to reveal cards again until the trigger has fully resolved is clearly wrong. To prove this, just look at the last ruling of Oracle of Mul Daya:
Drawing multiple cards is clearly sequential, and the fact that you are to reveal each new top card card means, that you don't wait until the spell/ability is finished resolving. You may be confusing this with the second to last ruling on the Oracle, but that is about activating an ability/casting a spell, not resolving one, so it doesn't apply.
And for the record, I agree with peteroupc, that exiling the chosen card and putting the rest on the bottom of the library for hideaway are sequential. For the reasons he stated.
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EDIT (Apr. 20, 2022): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
While my opponent is looking at the top four cards I can tell that those cards are the top four and not any other 4. I think it should follow, then, that among those 4 I could also tell which of them is the top, 2nd down, etc. Why not?
If I can...
If the actions are simultaneous the game goes from the top 4 cards being looked at in one moment and the next moment one card is exiled with the other three on the bottom of the library. It this case it makes sense that I would not be able to tell which card was chosen, even if I knew which card was top, 2nd, 3rd, 4th during the looking.
If the actions are sequential, though, and there is a moment where the exiled card has been chosen and the other 3 are still on top of the library, what prevents me from keep track of which of the 4 cards are the 3 cards that remain?
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