Hello so after another of magic me and a couple friends were playing 2 headed giant. However a couple of ruling questions we weren't quite sure on popped up. So I figured I would post them here to get other thoughts.
The first involves Portal Mage. The question being say player a attacked with 3 creatures could you use it to instead make him attack his teammate? since they are two separate entities or because both players life totals are combined and you attack them like one entity you cannot.
The second involves Polymorphist's Jest. While not necessarily 2hg in particular it did pop up in our games and it got us curious. Let's say player A has a Phantom Nishoba with 7 counters on it equipped with a Grappling Hook , Sword of the Animist , and a Behemoth Sledge and player B casts jest. What would the end result of the nishoba be. Would it still keep all the equipped abilities or would player A need to reequip everything.
The first involves Portal Mage. The question being say player a attacked with 3 creatures could you use it to instead make him attack his teammate? since they are two separate entities or because both players life totals are combined and you attack them like one entity you cannot.
In 2HG teams attack teams, players do not attack individual players. All players in the attacking team declare their attackers together, while all players in the defending team decide their blockers together. In 2 team 2HG game, Portal Mage can only change who/what is being attacked by the targeted creature, if the defending team controls a planeswalker. Otherwise, there is nothing to change as there is only one choice: the defending team. You cannot make an attacking creature attack the attacking team or any of their planeswalkers.
The second involves Polymorphist's Jest. While not necessarily 2hg in particular it did pop up in our games and it got us curious. Let's say player A has a Phantom Nishoba with 7 counters on it equipped with a Grappling Hook , Sword of the Animist , and a Behemoth Sledge and player B casts jest. What would the end result of the nishoba be. Would it still keep all the equipped abilities or would player A need to reequip everything.
This is a matter of layers and time stamps. The effects involved here apply in different layers, and go through all the layers in a specifc order. Within a layer, barring some dependency (none here), you apply effects in time stamp order, the oldest first, the newest last. The time stamps of effects of resolving spells and abilities are the time when that spell/ability created the effect during its resolution. Time stamps of the effects of auras and equipment are the time those were attached (so they change when attached to something else). Time stamps of effects of static abilities are the same as the time stamps of the source (usually, the time they entered the battlefield) or when the source received the ability, whichever is newer..
With that in mind, we can determine the Nishoba's characteristics. You start with its printed values. There are no copy effects (layer 1), control changing effects (layer 2), or text changing effects (layer 3), so we still have the Nishoba's printed values up to this point. Next is type changing effects (layer 4), and we have one effect here (Jest) makng the Nishoba into a Frog. Next, color changing effects (layer 5), and again only one effect (Jest) making the Nishoba Frog blue. Next, granting and removing abilities (layer 6), and here we have several effects. But since Jest has the latest time stamp of those, the blue Frog Nishoba has no abilities, neither its own nor any of the ones granted to it by the equipment.
Next layer 7, and its sublayers, that determine power/toughness. We have no characteristic defining abiities (layer 7a). Wehave one effect that sets base power/toughness (Jest), so the Nishoba's power/toughness is set to 1/1. Next, power/toughness modifiers (layer 7c), where Sword and Sledge are applied, making the Nishoba a 4/4. Next, counters (layer 7d), and Nishoba has 7 +1/+1 counters, making it 11/11. Last, power/toughness switches (layer 7e), of which we have none. This leaves you with a 11/11 blue Frog without any abilities.
(You can look up the layers in the CR, rule 613. Interaction of Continuous Effects.)
The controller of the Nishoba can change the characteristics by reattaching the equipment and thus changing the time stamps of their effects. but the equipment has to actually unattach from the Nishoba for this. So just activating the equip abiliy to target the nishoba again does not suffice, you have to move it to another creature or make it become unattached first.
The first involves Portal Mage. The question being say player a attacked with 3 creatures could you use it to instead make him attack his teammate? since they are two separate entities or because both players life totals are combined and you attack them like one entity you cannot.
In 2HG teams attack teams, players do not attack individual players. All players in the attacking team declare their attackers together, while all players in the defending team decide their blockers together. In 2 team 2HG game, Portal Mage can only change who/what is being attacked by the targeted creature, if the defending team controls a planeswalker. Otherwise, there is nothing to change as there is only one choice: the defending team. You cannot make an attacking creature attack the attacking team or any of their planeswalkers.
That is slightly incorrect. While it will often make little difference, each head is a separate entity.
All damage is dealt to the shared life total, blocking is shared between heads, but it matters where attacks are declared and where damage is dealt. i.e., declaring Kozilek, Butcher of Truth requires you to choose a head to trigger annihilator on (portal mage can't move the trigger, attacks are already declared). Stigma Lasher in 2HG will cause only one head to not gain life. There are many other examples that would care which head is attacked or dealt damage. Portal Mage can change which head of your opponents (or planeswalker they control) attacks are declared towards, but attacks must still be valid. Rezzahan is absolutely correct here, you can't have them attack their own walker, teammate, or teammate's walker.
For a practical example, if you have Cromat and Spirit of Resistance out, you would use Portal Mage to force your opponent's creature to attack you so that all damage would be prevented.
Rezzahan: That is wonderful description of how the layering and timestamps work!
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The first involves Portal Mage. The question being say player a attacked with 3 creatures could you use it to instead make him attack his teammate? since they are two separate entities or because both players life totals are combined and you attack them like one entity you cannot.
In 2HG teams attack teams, players do not attack individual players. All players in the attacking team declare their attackers together, while all players in the defending team decide their blockers together. In 2 team 2HG game, Portal Mage can only change who/what is being attacked by the targeted creature, if the defending team controls a planeswalker. Otherwise, there is nothing to change as there is only one choice: the defending team. You cannot make an attacking creature attack the attacking team or any of their planeswalkers.
That is slightly incorrect. While it will often make little difference, each head is a separate entity.
All damage is dealt to the shared life total, blocking is shared between heads, but it matters where attacks are declared and where damage is dealt. i.e., declaring Kozilek, Butcher of Truth requires you to choose a head to trigger annihilator on (portal mage can't move the trigger, attacks are already declared). Stigma Lasher in 2HG will cause only one head to not gain life. There are many other examples that would care which head is attacked or dealt damage. Portal Mage can change which head of your opponents (or planeswalker they control) attacks are declared towards, but attacks must still be valid. Rezzahan is absolutely correct here, you can't have them attack their own walker, teammate, or teammate's walker.
For a practical example, if you have Cromat and Spirit of Resistance out, you would use Portal Mage to force your opponent's creature to attack you so that all damage would be prevented.
Rezzahan: That is wonderful description of how the layering and timestamps work!
No, your summary is not correct. There are 2 defending players, but only one team and the team is attacked as a whole. Yes, when damage is assigned, it is assigned to an individual head (which matters for things like Hixus, Prison Warden) but attackers are declared against the team or a specific planeswalker. You seem to be mixing up a couple rules and drawing incorrect conclusions. Here are the relevant rules for this discussion as well as the one that explains your Kozilek example:
810.7a. Each team's creatures attack the other team as a group. During the combat phase, the active team is the attacking team and each player on the active team is an attacking player. Likewise, the nonactive team is the defending team and each player on the nonactive team is a defending player.
810.7b. Any one-shot effect that refers to the "defending player" refers to one specific defending player, not to both of the defending players. The controller of the effect chooses which one the spell or ability refers to at the time the effect is applied. The same is true for any one-shot effect that refers to the "attacking player." Any characteristic-defining ability that refers to the "defending player" refers to one specific defending player, not to both of the defending players. The controller of the object with the characteristic-defining ability chooses which one the ability refers to at the time the nonactive players become defending players. If that time has already occurred, that player makes that choice as the object enters the battlefield or gains the ability. All other cases in which the "defending player" is referred to actually refer to both defending players. If the reference involves a positive comparison (such as asking whether the defending player controls an Island) or a relative comparison (such as asking whether you control more creatures than the defending player), it gets only one answer. This answer is "yes" if either defending player in the comparison would return a "yes" answer if compared individually. If the reference involves a negative comparison (such as asking whether the defending player controls no black permanents), it also gets only one answer. This answer is "yes" if performing the analogous positive comparison would return a "no" answer. The same is true for all other cases that refer to the "attacking player."
810.7c. As the declare attackers step begins, the active team declares attackers. If an effect of an object controlled by a defending player prohibits a creature from attacking him or her, that creature can't attack the defending team. The active team has one combined attack, and that set of attacking creatures must be legal as a whole. See rule 508.1.
Example: One player in a Two-Headed Giant game controls Teferi's Moat, which says "As Teferi's Moat enters the battlefield, choose a color." and "Creatures of the chosen color without flying can't attack you." Creatures of the chosen color without flying can't attack that player's team.
810.7d. As the declare blockers step begins, the defending team declares blockers. Creatures controlled by the defending players can block any attacking creatures. The defending team has one combined block, and that set of blocking creatures must be legal as a whole. See rule 509.1.
Example: If an attacking creature has forestwalk and either player on the defending team controls a Forest, the creature can't be blocked.
810.7e. Once blockers have been declared, for each attacking creature that's become blocked by multiple creatures, the active team announces the damage assignment order among the blocking creatures. Then, for each creature that's blocking multiple creatures, the defending team announces the damage assignment order among the attacking creatures.
810.7f. As the combat damage step begins, the active team announces how each attacking creature will assign its combat damage. If an attacking creature would assign combat damage to the defending team, the active team chooses only one of the defending players for that creature to assign its combat damage to. Then the defending team announces how each blocking creature will assign its combat damage. See rule 510.1.
As such, your example of Kozilek is correct because of rule 810.7b and your example of Stigma Lasher is correct because of 810.7f. However, Sphere of Resistance doesn't work because of the same rule: 810.7f. As with the Hixus example above, the attacking team can just choose to assign damage to your teammate and Portal Mage can do nothing about it since the only viable way for their creature to attack is to attack the entire team (or a planeswalker).
Rule 508.7f also clarifies this:
508.7f. In a Two-Headed Giant game, the team or planeswalker the creature is attacking is reselected rather than the player or planeswalker. A team reselected this way must be an opposing team of the attacking creature's controller.
As of Dominaria, creatures can now attack individual players in a team in Two-Headed Giant as in any other game using the shared team turns option (C.R. 810.7, 805.10a-b). Moreover, C.R. 508.7f, which changes what reselecting a player or planeswalker means in Two-Headed Giant, was deleted.
Therefore, the answer to question 1 in comment 1 is that you can now reselect what the targeted creature is attacking to a teammate of the defending player in a Two-Headed Giant game.
The first involves Portal Mage. The question being say player a attacked with 3 creatures could you use it to instead make him attack his teammate? since they are two separate entities or because both players life totals are combined and you attack them like one entity you cannot.
The second involves Polymorphist's Jest. While not necessarily 2hg in particular it did pop up in our games and it got us curious. Let's say player A has a Phantom Nishoba with 7 counters on it equipped with a Grappling Hook , Sword of the Animist , and a Behemoth Sledge and player B casts jest. What would the end result of the nishoba be. Would it still keep all the equipped abilities or would player A need to reequip everything.
Thank you for the help!
In 2HG teams attack teams, players do not attack individual players. All players in the attacking team declare their attackers together, while all players in the defending team decide their blockers together. In 2 team 2HG game, Portal Mage can only change who/what is being attacked by the targeted creature, if the defending team controls a planeswalker. Otherwise, there is nothing to change as there is only one choice: the defending team. You cannot make an attacking creature attack the attacking team or any of their planeswalkers.
This is a matter of layers and time stamps. The effects involved here apply in different layers, and go through all the layers in a specifc order. Within a layer, barring some dependency (none here), you apply effects in time stamp order, the oldest first, the newest last. The time stamps of effects of resolving spells and abilities are the time when that spell/ability created the effect during its resolution. Time stamps of the effects of auras and equipment are the time those were attached (so they change when attached to something else). Time stamps of effects of static abilities are the same as the time stamps of the source (usually, the time they entered the battlefield) or when the source received the ability, whichever is newer..
With that in mind, we can determine the Nishoba's characteristics. You start with its printed values. There are no copy effects (layer 1), control changing effects (layer 2), or text changing effects (layer 3), so we still have the Nishoba's printed values up to this point. Next is type changing effects (layer 4), and we have one effect here (Jest) makng the Nishoba into a Frog. Next, color changing effects (layer 5), and again only one effect (Jest) making the Nishoba Frog blue. Next, granting and removing abilities (layer 6), and here we have several effects. But since Jest has the latest time stamp of those, the blue Frog Nishoba has no abilities, neither its own nor any of the ones granted to it by the equipment.
Next layer 7, and its sublayers, that determine power/toughness. We have no characteristic defining abiities (layer 7a). Wehave one effect that sets base power/toughness (Jest), so the Nishoba's power/toughness is set to 1/1. Next, power/toughness modifiers (layer 7c), where Sword and Sledge are applied, making the Nishoba a 4/4. Next, counters (layer 7d), and Nishoba has 7 +1/+1 counters, making it 11/11. Last, power/toughness switches (layer 7e), of which we have none. This leaves you with a 11/11 blue Frog without any abilities.
(You can look up the layers in the CR, rule 613. Interaction of Continuous Effects.)
The controller of the Nishoba can change the characteristics by reattaching the equipment and thus changing the time stamps of their effects. but the equipment has to actually unattach from the Nishoba for this. So just activating the equip abiliy to target the nishoba again does not suffice, you have to move it to another creature or make it become unattached first.
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That is slightly incorrect. While it will often make little difference, each head is a separate entity.
All damage is dealt to the shared life total, blocking is shared between heads, but it matters where attacks are declared and where damage is dealt. i.e., declaring Kozilek, Butcher of Truth requires you to choose a head to trigger annihilator on (portal mage can't move the trigger, attacks are already declared). Stigma Lasher in 2HG will cause only one head to not gain life. There are many other examples that would care which head is attacked or dealt damage. Portal Mage can change which head of your opponents (or planeswalker they control) attacks are declared towards, but attacks must still be valid. Rezzahan is absolutely correct here, you can't have them attack their own walker, teammate, or teammate's walker.
For a practical example, if you have Cromat and Spirit of Resistance out, you would use Portal Mage to force your opponent's creature to attack you so that all damage would be prevented.
Rezzahan: That is wonderful description of how the layering and timestamps work!
WUBRG: Karona - Chaos towards Divine Intervention ** WUBRG: Karona - God Tribal ** WB: Teysa - Angels, Wrath, and Return from GY ** UB: Szadek - Control and Mill ** RWU: Zedruu - Everyone Draws Cards ** BUG: Damia - Gorgon Voltron Ramp ** URG: Animar - ETB effects and Beatdown ** WUB: Sharuum - Lots of Artifacts UG: Edric - Tribal Rogues ** W: Odric - Tribal Soldiers ** B: Shirei - Shadowborn Apostle Deck ** RB: Tymaret - Kill all the things!
810.7b. Any one-shot effect that refers to the "defending player" refers to one specific defending player, not to both of the defending players. The controller of the effect chooses which one the spell or ability refers to at the time the effect is applied. The same is true for any one-shot effect that refers to the "attacking player." Any characteristic-defining ability that refers to the "defending player" refers to one specific defending player, not to both of the defending players. The controller of the object with the characteristic-defining ability chooses which one the ability refers to at the time the nonactive players become defending players. If that time has already occurred, that player makes that choice as the object enters the battlefield or gains the ability. All other cases in which the "defending player" is referred to actually refer to both defending players. If the reference involves a positive comparison (such as asking whether the defending player controls an Island) or a relative comparison (such as asking whether you control more creatures than the defending player), it gets only one answer. This answer is "yes" if either defending player in the comparison would return a "yes" answer if compared individually. If the reference involves a negative comparison (such as asking whether the defending player controls no black permanents), it also gets only one answer. This answer is "yes" if performing the analogous positive comparison would return a "no" answer. The same is true for all other cases that refer to the "attacking player."
810.7c. As the declare attackers step begins, the active team declares attackers. If an effect of an object controlled by a defending player prohibits a creature from attacking him or her, that creature can't attack the defending team. The active team has one combined attack, and that set of attacking creatures must be legal as a whole. See rule 508.1.
Example: One player in a Two-Headed Giant game controls Teferi's Moat, which says "As Teferi's Moat enters the battlefield, choose a color." and "Creatures of the chosen color without flying can't attack you." Creatures of the chosen color without flying can't attack that player's team.
810.7d. As the declare blockers step begins, the defending team declares blockers. Creatures controlled by the defending players can block any attacking creatures. The defending team has one combined block, and that set of blocking creatures must be legal as a whole. See rule 509.1.
Example: If an attacking creature has forestwalk and either player on the defending team controls a Forest, the creature can't be blocked.
810.7e. Once blockers have been declared, for each attacking creature that's become blocked by multiple creatures, the active team announces the damage assignment order among the blocking creatures. Then, for each creature that's blocking multiple creatures, the defending team announces the damage assignment order among the attacking creatures.
810.7f. As the combat damage step begins, the active team announces how each attacking creature will assign its combat damage. If an attacking creature would assign combat damage to the defending team, the active team chooses only one of the defending players for that creature to assign its combat damage to. Then the defending team announces how each blocking creature will assign its combat damage. See rule 510.1.
As such, your example of Kozilek is correct because of rule 810.7b and your example of Stigma Lasher is correct because of 810.7f. However, Sphere of Resistance doesn't work because of the same rule: 810.7f. As with the Hixus example above, the attacking team can just choose to assign damage to your teammate and Portal Mage can do nothing about it since the only viable way for their creature to attack is to attack the entire team (or a planeswalker).
Rule 508.7f also clarifies this:
WUBRG: Karona - Chaos towards Divine Intervention ** WUBRG: Karona - God Tribal ** WB: Teysa - Angels, Wrath, and Return from GY ** UB: Szadek - Control and Mill ** RWU: Zedruu - Everyone Draws Cards ** BUG: Damia - Gorgon Voltron Ramp ** URG: Animar - ETB effects and Beatdown ** WUB: Sharuum - Lots of Artifacts UG: Edric - Tribal Rogues ** W: Odric - Tribal Soldiers ** B: Shirei - Shadowborn Apostle Deck ** RB: Tymaret - Kill all the things!
Therefore, the answer to question 1 in comment 1 is that you can now reselect what the targeted creature is attacking to a teammate of the defending player in a Two-Headed Giant game.