If a card refers to itself by name, it actually means "this card" instead of the actual name. Which is why, let's say, when Morphling is caged by Mairsil, the ability "untap Morphling" becomes "untap Mairsil".
Following the same logic, if Mairsil cages one of these cards above (ex: Skyship Weatherlight), would the ability "{4}, {T}: Choose a card at random that was exiled with Skyship Weatherlight. Put that card into its owner's hand." become "{4}, {T}: Choose a card at random that was exiled with Mairsil, the Pretender. Put that card into its owner's hand." allowing me to return cards caged by Mairsil back to my hand?
Each of those abilities are whats called "linked abilities". When the refer to "cards exiled with ~" they actually mean "cards exiled by ~'s other linked ability". So for the ones where you get both linked abilities they function as normal, like Bane Alley Broker(though you can't look at the face down cards), but with Skyship Weatherlight it doesn't do anything.
No in all three cases. The Skyship, Broker, and Scepter all have what are called "linked abilities".
607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to “the exiled cards” or to cards “exiled with [this object],” these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.
The Broker's second ability can only return cards exiled by the Broker's first ability, not any card exile by the permanent. Same with the Scepter. And the Skyship's activated ability only has access to the cards exiled by the Skyship's triggered ability (making it a poor choice to exile to Mairsil, since you won't get the Skyship's trigger).
607.5. If an object acquires a pair of linked abilities as part of the same effect, the abilities will be similarly linked to one another on that object even though they weren’t printed on that object. They can’t be linked to any other ability, regardless of what other abilities the object may currently have or may have had in the past.
Example: Arc-Slogger has the ability “{R}, Exile the top ten cards of your library: Arc-Slogger deals 2 damage to target creature or player.” Sisters of Stone Death has the ability “{B}{G}: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Sisters of Stone Death” and the ability “{2}{B}: Put a creature card exiled with Sisters of Stone Death onto the battlefield under your control.” Quicksilver Elemental has the ability “{U}: Quicksilver Elemental gains all activated abilities of target creature until end of turn.” If a player has Quicksilver Elemental gain Arc-Slogger’s ability, activates it, then has Quicksilver Elemental gain Sisters of Stone Death’s abilities, activates the exile ability, and then activates the return-to-the-battlefield ability, only the creature card Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Sisters of Stone Death’s ability can be returned to the battlefield. Creature cards Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Arc-Slogger’s ability can’t be returned.
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Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
Regarding Bane Alley Broker, if Mairsil has caged that card, and you used the caged Broker's first ability several times with Mairsil (over the course of several turns), thus have several exiled cards, if you activate the last ability of the caged Broker, do you get to choose which card you get or does this rule apply and you get a random card?
406.4. Face-down cards in exile should be kept in separate piles based on when they were exiled and
how they were exiled. If a player is instructed to choose an exiled card, the player may choose a
specific face-down card only if the player is allowed to look at that card. Otherwise, he or she may
choose a pile of face-down exiled cards, and then a card is chosen at random from within that pile.
If choosing such a card is part of casting a spell or activating an ability, the chosen card isn’t
revealed until after that cost is fully paid. (See rule 601.2i.)
Intuitively, you should be able to choose, since you should know which card is which.
Regarding Bane Alley Broker, if Mairsil has caged that card, and you used the caged Broker's first ability several times with Mairsil (over the course of several turns), thus have several exiled cards, if you activate the last ability of the caged Broker, do you get to choose which card you get or does this rule apply and you get a random card?
406.4. Face-down cards in exile should be kept in separate piles based on when they were exiled and
how they were exiled. If a player is instructed to choose an exiled card, the player may choose a
specific face-down card only if the player is allowed to look at that card. Otherwise, he or she may
choose a pile of face-down exiled cards, and then a card is chosen at random from within that pile.
If choosing such a card is part of casting a spell or activating an ability, the chosen card isn’t
revealed until after that cost is fully paid. (See rule 601.2i.)
Intuitively, you should be able to choose, since you should know which card is which.
Because nothing is giving Mairsil/Broker the ability to look at the cards, they would need to be chosen randomly. However, each random card is exiled individually so the controller just chooses which pile of 1 card they want to randomly return a card from. So they still basically get the exact card they want. So, I would agree that they would effectively be able to choose, but within the rules they are technically choosing at random.
What about targeting Dominating Licid with Mairsil, the Pretender? Wioll you for ever lose the ability to become an aura again, or will it come back, say on the next turn?
Wow, thank you very much for all the quick answers!
I have a follow-up question: let's say Mairsil caged Gustha's Scepter.
I exile a couple cards with the Scepter's first ability and then Mairsil is destroyed and goes back to the command zone. Then I cast him again. If I use now the Scepter's second ability to return a card to my hand, will I be able to get any of the cards that were exiled by the first ability before Mairsil was destroyed?
Wow, thank you very much for all the quick answers!
I have a follow-up question: let's say Mairsil caged Gustha's Scepter.
I exile a couple cards with the Scepter's first ability and then Mairsil is destroyed and goes back to the command zone. Then I cast him again. If I use now the Scepter's second ability to return a card to my hand, will I be able to get any of the cards that were exiled by the first ability before Mairsil was destroyed?
No, you won't be able to return any of those cards. As the version of Mairsil that exiled the cards is not the same in game object that is trying to return a card (even though it is represented by the same piece of cardboard).
The second time Marisil enters the battlefield, it has no memory of what it did before, and that includes what cards it exiled while acting as a Gustha's Scepter.
Also if you cage the Scepter, when Mairsil leaves the field (or is stolen), the cards he exiled with the Scepter stay in exile for he doesn't get the trigger of dumping them into the grave.
What about targeting Dominating Licid with Mairsil, the Pretender? Wioll you for ever lose the ability to become an aura again, or will it come back, say on the next turn?
This post was edited over a couple minutes as I better understood the question and the implications while writing.
If you exile the Licid with Mairsil's first ability from your hand or your graveyard (note that that ability doesn't target), Mairsil has the Licid's ability, which allows him to become an aura. An aura that does nothing to what it enchants, though, because he doesn't have the static ability "You control enchanted creature". So you'd have a Mairsil aura attached somewhere that's not a creature, but still has his abilities (except for the Licid ability). You can pay U to make him a creature again any time you have priority, as that effect comes from activating the Licid ability. If you do, Mairsil has the Licid ability again, because the effect making him lose that particular ability has ended, that's part of what you're ending by paying U, so the effect giving him the ability "resumes" (not that it ever really went away, it's just that the effect making him lose the ability overlayed it temporarily).
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
What about targeting Dominating Licid with Mairsil, the Pretender? Wioll you for ever lose the ability to become an aura again, or will it come back, say on the next turn?
Mairsil doesn't target anything, unless he gains an ability that does, so I guess you mean exiling the Licid with him from your hand or your graveyard. If you do, Mairsil has the Licid's ability, which allows him to become an aura. An aura that does nothing to what it enchants, though, because he doesn't have the static ability "You control enchanted creature". So you'd have a Mairsil aura attached somewhere that's not a creature, but still has his abilities. You can pay U to make him a creature again any time you have priority, that effect comes from activating the Licid ability. If you do, Mairsil has the Licid ability again, because the effect making him lose that particular ability has ended, that's part of what you're ending by paying U, so the effect giving him the ability "resumes".
He's talking about the "lose this ability" part of the Licid activation. Technically it says Mairsil loses the ability when he activates it, but then doesn't his own static ability then override it when it checks for what abilities he has access to since the Licid is still caged and therefore he should no matter what still have access to the aura transform ability? It's a confusing interaction for sure.
He's talking about the "lose this ability" part of the Licid activation. Technically it says Mairsil loses the ability when he activates it, but then doesn't his own static ability then override it when it checks for what abilities he has access to since the Licid is still caged and therefore he should no matter what still have access to the aura transform ability? It's a confusing interaction for sure.
Ya, I got that right after I posted the first version of my post, and went and edited it to clarify that part, hadn't seen your post at that point. As I said after editing, the effect making him lose the Licid ability goes away when you end the ability's effect, and Mairsil's effect giving him the ability applies normally after that.
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He's talking about the "lose this ability" part of the Licid activation. Technically it says Mairsil loses the ability when he activates it, but then doesn't his own static ability then override it when it checks for what abilities he has access to since the Licid is still caged and therefore he should no matter what still have access to the aura transform ability? It's a confusing interaction for sure.
Ya, I got that right after I posted the first version of my post, and went and edited it to clarify that part, hadn't seen your post at that point. As I said after editing, the effect making him lose the Licid ability goes away when you end the ability's effect, and Mairsil's effect giving him the ability applies normally after that.
Yeah, you edited right as I was posting so I didn't see the edit either lol.
The way you're describing it seems to contradict his ability itself...his abilities should be checking what is caged constantly, no? Like say he's currently in Licid form, and then you use Pack Rat ability or something to cage another creature, or a turn ends. His ability that checks what can be used once per turn would then check what he has access too, and re-checking would see the original Licid ability still caged. That should give him access to the ability again even though the activation said he lost it. I think I'm getting it from 613.7 and his second continuous effect is what would override the Licid's because it's dependent on what is caged.
I dunno, it's kind of a disaster and I hope someone from WotC can clarify this interaction specifically somewhere.
The way you're describing it seems to contradict his ability itself...his abilities should be checking what is caged constantly, no? Like say he's currently in Licid form, and then you use Pack Rat ability or something to cage another creature, or a turn ends. His ability that checks what can be used once per turn would then check what he has access too, and re-checking would see the original Licid ability still caged. That should give him access to the ability again even though the activation said he lost it. I think I'm getting it from 613.7 and his second continuous effect is what would override the Licid's because it's dependent on what is caged.
I dunno, it's kind of a disaster and I hope someone from WotC can clarify this interaction specifically somewhere.
613.7 doesn't apply here, there is no dependency, it's just a timestamp matter (613.2) within layer 6 (ability-adding and ability-removing). Mairsil's static ability says it has the Licid ability, the Licid ability having resolved says it doesn't have that ability. The latter having a later timestamp, it "wins" for as long as it's in effect.
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The way you're describing it seems to contradict his ability itself...his abilities should be checking what is caged constantly, no? Like say he's currently in Licid form, and then you use Pack Rat ability or something to cage another creature, or a turn ends. His ability that checks what can be used once per turn would then check what he has access too, and re-checking would see the original Licid ability still caged. That should give him access to the ability again even though the activation said he lost it. I think I'm getting it from 613.7 and his second continuous effect is what would override the Licid's because it's dependent on what is caged.
I dunno, it's kind of a disaster and I hope someone from WotC can clarify this interaction specifically somewhere.
613.7 doesn't apply here, there is no dependency, it's just a timestamp matter (613.2) within layer 6 (ability-adding and ability-removing). Mairsil's static ability says it has the Licid ability, the Licid ability having resolved says it doesn't have that ability. The latter having a later timestamp, it "wins" for as long as it's in effect.
I know there's a timestamp, but the caged abilities and his second ability are technically linked and he'd lose all abilities if he lost his own single ability, so I'm not seeing how they aren't dependent. "(b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect (him seeing the caged Licid ability), what it applies to (caged ability), or what it does to any of the things it applies to" sounds exactly like what the Licid effect is doing, as it's basically saying his entire cage ability effect no longer sees a caged ability, erasing it's existence...but that's impossible since the caged ability is still there in the cage and he can always see it. Could you elaborate on this part of the interaction?
I know there's a timestamp, but the caged abilities and his second ability are technically linked and he'd lose all abilities if he lost his own single ability, so I'm not seeing how they aren't dependent. "(b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect (him seeing the caged Licid ability), what it applies to (caged ability), or what it does to any of the things it applies to" sounds exactly like what the Licid effect is doing, as it's basically saying his entire cage ability effect no longer sees a caged ability, erasing it's existence...but that's impossible since the caged ability is still there in the cage and he can always see it. Could you elaborate on this part of the interaction?
You seem to be overthinking this or misinterpreting something… The only ability that Mairsil loses is the Licid ability, per the effect set by that same activated ability when it resolves (so that it can’t be activated again while Mairsil is an aura). We have a continuous effect that adds the Licid ability, which comes from Mairsil’s static ability that says he has the activated abilities of the caged cards, and we have a continuous effect from the resolved Licid ability saying that it loses that ability. The latter has a later timestamp, so Mairsil doesn’t have the Licid ability, but that stays true only until you end the Licid ability’s effect by paying U; the effect of Mairsil’s ability granting the Licid ability still exists, it is just overlayed for the duration of the Licid ability’s effect. Timestamp is how conflicts between several continuous effects in the same layer are normally resolved.
613.6. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp.
Dependency as defined in the rules is something that overrides timestamp in special cases where applying one of the two conflicting effects before the other would change what the other does in one of the specific ways described in the (b) part of 613.7a :
613.7a. An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
The effect removing the Licid ability from Mairsil doesn’t change the text or existence of the effect that gives the ability to Mairsil, it doesn’t change that it’s to Mairsil that it applies, and it doesn’t change what it does to Mairsil; it just applies over it because it has a later timestamp. We apply the effect saying that Mairsil has the Licid ability, then we apply the effect saying that it loses that ability, it's that simple.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
I know there's a timestamp, but the caged abilities and his second ability are technically linked and he'd lose all abilities if he lost his own single ability, so I'm not seeing how they aren't dependent. "(b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect (him seeing the caged Licid ability), what it applies to (caged ability), or what it does to any of the things it applies to" sounds exactly like what the Licid effect is doing, as it's basically saying his entire cage ability effect no longer sees a caged ability, erasing it's existence...but that's impossible since the caged ability is still there in the cage and he can always see it. Could you elaborate on this part of the interaction?
You seem to be overthinking this or misinterpreting something… The only ability that Mairsil loses is the Licid ability, per the effect set by that same activated ability when it resolves (so that it can’t be activated again while Mairsil is an aura). We have a continuous effect that adds the Licid ability, which comes from Mairsil’s static ability that says he has the activated abilities of the caged cards, and we have a continuous effect from the resolved Licid ability saying that it loses that ability. The latter has a later timestamp, so Mairsil doesn’t have the Licid ability, but that stays true only until you end the Licid ability’s effect by paying U; the effect of Mairsil’s ability granting the Licid ability still exists, it is just overlayed for the duration of the Licid ability’s effect. Timestamp is how conflicts between several continuous effects in the same layer are normally resolved.
613.6. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp.
Dependency as defined in the rules is something that overrides timestamp in special cases where applying one of the two conflicting effects before the other would change what the other does in one of the specific ways described in the (b) part of 613.7a :
613.7a. An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
The effect removing the Licid ability from Mairsil doesn’t change the text or existence of the effect that gives the ability to Mairsil, it doesn’t change that it’s to Mairsil that it applies, and it doesn’t change what it does to Mairsil; it just applies over it because it has a later timestamp. We apply the effect saying that Mairsil has the Licid ability, then we apply the effect saying that it loses that ability, it's that simple.
I guess I am overthinking it. It's just weird how it takes away an ability from a card in exile that's still just sitting there. At least there is one way around it with Quicksilver Elemental so making him jump around for no reason is still possible lol
I guess I am overthinking it. It's just weird how it takes away an ability from a card in exile that's still just sitting there. At least there is one way around it with Quicksilver Elemental so making him jump around for no reason is still possible lol
Activating a Licid's ability to become an aura will make a creature kill spell fizzle. There are some defensive applications it seems
I guess I am overthinking it. It's just weird how it takes away an ability from a card in exile that's still just sitting there. At least there is one way around it with Quicksilver Elemental so making him jump around for no reason is still possible lol
It's not taking away the ability of the Licid in exile, it's taking away the replica of the ability that Mairsil has. And yes, Quicksilver Elemental also being caged allows Mairsil to gain a different instance of the ability that could be activated even if he's already an aura, allowing you to attach him to another creature.
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Skyship Weatherlight
Bane Alley Broker
Gustha's Scepter
If a card refers to itself by name, it actually means "this card" instead of the actual name. Which is why, let's say, when Morphling is caged by Mairsil, the ability "untap Morphling" becomes "untap Mairsil".
Following the same logic, if Mairsil cages one of these cards above (ex: Skyship Weatherlight), would the ability "{4}, {T}: Choose a card at random that was exiled with Skyship Weatherlight. Put that card into its owner's hand." become "{4}, {T}: Choose a card at random that was exiled with Mairsil, the Pretender. Put that card into its owner's hand." allowing me to return cards caged by Mairsil back to my hand?
Spam warning issued (not answering the question or asking one of their own). -MadMage
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Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
The Broker's second ability can only return cards exiled by the Broker's first ability, not any card exile by the permanent. Same with the Scepter. And the Skyship's activated ability only has access to the cards exiled by the Skyship's triggered ability (making it a poor choice to exile to Mairsil, since you won't get the Skyship's trigger).
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
Intuitively, you should be able to choose, since you should know which card is which.
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Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
I have a follow-up question: let's say Mairsil caged Gustha's Scepter.
I exile a couple cards with the Scepter's first ability and then Mairsil is destroyed and goes back to the command zone. Then I cast him again. If I use now the Scepter's second ability to return a card to my hand, will I be able to get any of the cards that were exiled by the first ability before Mairsil was destroyed?
No, you won't be able to return any of those cards. As the version of Mairsil that exiled the cards is not the same in game object that is trying to return a card (even though it is represented by the same piece of cardboard).
The second time Marisil enters the battlefield, it has no memory of what it did before, and that includes what cards it exiled while acting as a Gustha's Scepter.
Hope that helps.
If you exile the Licid with Mairsil's first ability from your hand or your graveyard (note that that ability doesn't target), Mairsil has the Licid's ability, which allows him to become an aura. An aura that does nothing to what it enchants, though, because he doesn't have the static ability "You control enchanted creature". So you'd have a Mairsil aura attached somewhere that's not a creature, but still has his abilities (except for the Licid ability). You can pay U to make him a creature again any time you have priority, as that effect comes from activating the Licid ability. If you do, Mairsil has the Licid ability again, because the effect making him lose that particular ability has ended, that's part of what you're ending by paying U, so the effect giving him the ability "resumes" (not that it ever really went away, it's just that the effect making him lose the ability overlayed it temporarily).
He's talking about the "lose this ability" part of the Licid activation. Technically it says Mairsil loses the ability when he activates it, but then doesn't his own static ability then override it when it checks for what abilities he has access to since the Licid is still caged and therefore he should no matter what still have access to the aura transform ability? It's a confusing interaction for sure.
Yeah, you edited right as I was posting so I didn't see the edit either lol.
The way you're describing it seems to contradict his ability itself...his abilities should be checking what is caged constantly, no? Like say he's currently in Licid form, and then you use Pack Rat ability or something to cage another creature, or a turn ends. His ability that checks what can be used once per turn would then check what he has access too, and re-checking would see the original Licid ability still caged. That should give him access to the ability again even though the activation said he lost it. I think I'm getting it from 613.7 and his second continuous effect is what would override the Licid's because it's dependent on what is caged.
I dunno, it's kind of a disaster and I hope someone from WotC can clarify this interaction specifically somewhere.
I know there's a timestamp, but the caged abilities and his second ability are technically linked and he'd lose all abilities if he lost his own single ability, so I'm not seeing how they aren't dependent. "(b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect (him seeing the caged Licid ability), what it applies to (caged ability), or what it does to any of the things it applies to" sounds exactly like what the Licid effect is doing, as it's basically saying his entire cage ability effect no longer sees a caged ability, erasing it's existence...but that's impossible since the caged ability is still there in the cage and he can always see it. Could you elaborate on this part of the interaction?
I guess I am overthinking it. It's just weird how it takes away an ability from a card in exile that's still just sitting there. At least there is one way around it with Quicksilver Elemental so making him jump around for no reason is still possible lol
Activating a Licid's ability to become an aura will make a creature kill spell fizzle. There are some defensive applications it seems
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG