I have a Mairsil, the Pretender who has been blinking around and exiling a bunch of cards.
Firstly, Arc-Slogger, to increase our number of exiled cards.
Then we have several different wordings of linked abilities to consider.
Second card exiled, a classic linked ability: Soul Foundry. Soul Foundry refers to *the* exiled card, and is strictly linked. I assume that Mairsil creates exactly nothing if he uses Soul Foundry's ability.
The Third card is a less typical linked ability: Mimic Vat. ORACLE TEXT. Note that the Oracle text changes how the linked ability works. It is no longer 'the exiled card', and is instead "Create a token that's a copy of a card exiled with Mimic Vat". Now, I think this suddenly doesn't work the same way as Soul Foundry. It now says we can make a copy of a card exiled by ~, so when Mairsil uses the ability, I think it would allow him to create a token of any creature Mairsil's exiled while he's been this instance of himself. For instance, Mairsil started the turn with Arc-Slogger and Mimic Vat exiled, he pays {R} and exiles the top 10 cards of his library, pings something for 2 damage, and can then pay {3} and tap, to copy a creature he exiled from the Arc-Slogger cost.
Is that correct?
Similarly are two other cards with similar linked abilities: Izzet Chemister and Pyxis of Pandemonium. Both of these cards refer to cards exiled by ~, which would mean exiled by this permanent. If Mairsil started a new turn with these abilities, and used the Arc-Slogger's ability to exile the top ten cards of his library, those ten cards would be linked to him, and would by able to be put into play by Pyxis or cast with Chemister... I think...
Can anyone confirm that?
I realize that there's been a lot of discussion about him, but I think that these openly-stated linked abilities might not interact in the same way as typical Imprint-like linked abilities.
In general, only if Mairsil gains "a pair of linked abilities as part of the same effect" (here, the effect of its second ability) can these abilities work as usual (C.R. 607.5). If Mairsil gains only the second linked ability (the one that refers to an exiled card, for example), that ability won't refer to any action taken or object or player affected due to the first linked ability, let alone due to any other ability (not even the cards exiled due to Mairsil's first ability, for example) (C.R. 607.1), regardless of whether the ability is worded "the exiled card", "a card exiled with ...", or otherwise (C.R. 607.2a applies to Mimic Vat as well as to Soul Foundry).
Therefore:
If Mairsil gains Soul Foundry's activated ability due to Mairsil's second ability, that ability can't be activated since it refers to an undefined value of X (as the exiled card is undefined) (see also C.R. 706.7a) can still be activated with X equal to 0 (C.R. 107.3c applies to that ability, but X would be undefined since the exiled card is undefined; as X is a "number that can't be determined" [under C.R. 107.3, X is a "placeholder for a number that needs to be determined"], 0 is used instead [C.R. 107.2]), but won't do anything on resolution since the exiled card is undefined (see also C.R. 706.7a).
If Mairsil gains Mimic Vat's activated ability due to Mairsil's second ability, that ability can be activated, but it won't do anything on resolution (see also C.R. 706.7a; C.R. 607.2a applies to Mimic Vat as well as to Soul Foundry).
On the other hand, Mairsil will gain both activated abilities of Izzet Chemister and both activated abilities of Pyxis of Pandemonium due to its second ability, rather than just one of each. However, the two abilities making up each pair will be linked only to each other and will refer only to cards exiled due to the first ability of each pair and not to cards exiled due to any other ability, not even the ability Mairsil may gain from Arc-Slogger, Mairsil's first ability, or any other ability that could exile cards (C.R. 607.2a, 607.5).
EDIT (Sep. 14): Material correction in Soul Foundry paragraph.
EDIT (Sep. 14): Small correctness edit after comment 5 was posted.
EDIT (Spe. 16): Clarification.
I made a material correction to the Soul Foundry paragraph in comment 2. I make a separate post in case merely editing the last post of the thread doesn't notify you of this.
As stated originally by peteroupc, linked abilities only care about the other linked ability, not any other ability the creature might have.
Relevant Rule:
607.5. - If an object acquires a pair of linked abilities as part of the same effect, the abilities will be similarly linked to one another on that object even though they weren’t printed on that object. They can’t be linked to any other ability, regardless of what other abilities the object may currently have or may have had in the past.
Example: Arc-Slogger has the ability “{R}, Exile the top ten cards of your library: Arc-Slogger deals 2 damage to target creature or player.” Sisters of Stone Death has the ability “{B}{G}: Exile target creature blocking or blocked by Sisters of Stone Death” and the ability “{2}{B}: Put a creature card exiled with Sisters of Stone Death onto the battlefield under your control.” Quicksilver Elemental has the ability “{U}: Quicksilver Elemental gains all activated abilities of target creature until end of turn.” If a player has Quicksilver Elemental gain Arc-Slogger’s ability, activates it, then has Quicksilver Elemental gain Sisters of Stone Death’s abilities, activates the exile ability, and then activates the return-to-the-battlefield ability, only the creature card Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Sisters of Stone Death’s ability can be returned to the battlefield. Creature cards Quicksilver Elemental exiled with Arc-Slogger’s ability can’t be returned.
So NO, if you have Mairsil with both Izzet Chemister's abilities and Arc-Slogger's ability, you can not cast cards exiled with Arc-Slogger's ability with the Izzet Chemister's second ability. The Chemister's second ability can only cast cards exiled with the Chemister's first ability.
Okay, that explanation made more sense to me... I didn't know that it would work like that, but I guess that makes sense. Otherwise it would be fairly easy to break cards like that...
Though this leaves me with a bit of a different question about things with Charge counters or other forms of counters. Magistrate's Scepter for example and a card that gives you Charge counters on Mairsil, that combination would work right?
Seeing as those aren't linked abilities and only care about the number of Charge counters...
I mean, if that also doesn't work, that makes Mairsil a lot less powerful... so I do hope at least that works..
Am trying to get more cards for the Deck and rather know in advance then getting a card that I can't use...
I have the scepter mind you... but I don't have another few cards that work with it.. ^^
Correct, the abilities on Magistrate's Scepter are not linked ability.
Relevant rule:
607.1. An object may have two abilities printed on it such that one of them causes actions to be taken or objects or players to be affected and the other one directly refers to those actions, objects, or players. If so, these two abilities are linked: the second refers only to actions that were taken or objects or players that were affected by the first, and not by any other ability.
Counters (such as charge counters) are not actions, objects or players.
121.1. A counter is a marker placed on an object or player that modifies its characteristics and/or interacts with a rule, ability, or effect. Counters are not objects and have no characteristics. Notably, a counter is not a token, and a token is not a counter. Counters with the same name or description are interchangeable.
Caging a card that makes use of charge counters and a card that adds charge counters to Mairsil will work fine.
A multiplayer victory has to exist beyond simply beating your opponent, there has to be a mutual enjoyment of everyone involved. If you win the game and everyone else is miserable then you've still lost. What gets played is irrelevant.
No. Mairsil only has those abilities while being on the battlefield, because only on the battlefield does his last ability function, that grants him those abilities from the caged cards.
Firstly, Arc-Slogger, to increase our number of exiled cards.
Then we have several different wordings of linked abilities to consider.
Second card exiled, a classic linked ability: Soul Foundry. Soul Foundry refers to *the* exiled card, and is strictly linked. I assume that Mairsil creates exactly nothing if he uses Soul Foundry's ability.
The Third card is a less typical linked ability: Mimic Vat. ORACLE TEXT. Note that the Oracle text changes how the linked ability works. It is no longer 'the exiled card', and is instead "Create a token that's a copy of a card exiled with Mimic Vat". Now, I think this suddenly doesn't work the same way as Soul Foundry. It now says we can make a copy of a card exiled by ~, so when Mairsil uses the ability, I think it would allow him to create a token of any creature Mairsil's exiled while he's been this instance of himself. For instance, Mairsil started the turn with Arc-Slogger and Mimic Vat exiled, he pays {R} and exiles the top 10 cards of his library, pings something for 2 damage, and can then pay {3} and tap, to copy a creature he exiled from the Arc-Slogger cost.
Is that correct?
Similarly are two other cards with similar linked abilities: Izzet Chemister and Pyxis of Pandemonium. Both of these cards refer to cards exiled by ~, which would mean exiled by this permanent. If Mairsil started a new turn with these abilities, and used the Arc-Slogger's ability to exile the top ten cards of his library, those ten cards would be linked to him, and would by able to be put into play by Pyxis or cast with Chemister... I think...
Can anyone confirm that?
I realize that there's been a lot of discussion about him, but I think that these openly-stated linked abilities might not interact in the same way as typical Imprint-like linked abilities.
TY for any help with this question.
Therefore:
If Mairsil gains Soul Foundry's activated ability due to Mairsil's second ability, that ability
can't be activated since it refers to an undefined value of X (as the exiled card is undefined) (see also C.R. 706.7a)can still be activated with X equal to 0 (C.R. 107.3c applies to that ability, but X would be undefined since the exiled card is undefined; as X is a "number that can't be determined" [under C.R. 107.3, X is a "placeholder for a number that needs to be determined"], 0 is used instead [C.R. 107.2]), but won't do anything on resolution since the exiled card is undefined (see also C.R. 706.7a).If Mairsil gains Mimic Vat's activated ability due to Mairsil's second ability, that ability can be activated, but it won't do anything on resolution (see also C.R. 706.7a; C.R. 607.2a applies to Mimic Vat as well as to Soul Foundry).
On the other hand, Mairsil will gain both activated abilities of Izzet Chemister and both activated abilities of Pyxis of Pandemonium due to its second ability, rather than just one of each. However, the two abilities making up each pair will be linked only to each other and will refer only to cards exiled due to the first ability of each pair and not to cards exiled due to any other ability, not even the ability Mairsil may gain from Arc-Slogger, Mairsil's first ability, or any other ability that could exile cards (C.R. 607.2a, 607.5).
EDIT (Sep. 14): Material correction in Soul Foundry paragraph.
EDIT (Sep. 14): Small correctness edit after comment 5 was posted.
EDIT (Spe. 16): Clarification.
Relevant Rule:
So NO, if you have Mairsil with both Izzet Chemister's abilities and Arc-Slogger's ability, you can not cast cards exiled with Arc-Slogger's ability with the Izzet Chemister's second ability. The Chemister's second ability can only cast cards exiled with the Chemister's first ability.
Hope that helps.
Correct, the abilities on Magistrate's Scepter are not linked ability.
Relevant rule:
Counters (such as charge counters) are not actions, objects or players.
Hope that helps.
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