I control a Demon of Death's Gate, Kaalia of the Vast EQUIPPED with Whispersilk Cloak and Sire of Insanity. I whack. Opponent cast Sudden Spoiling. Does my Kaalia lose the abilities given by the Cloak?
Take note that Whispersilk Cloak does not give ability to my Kaalia directly, that is, it is NOT Equipped creature has 'unblockable' and 'shroud'. Instead, it just says Equipped creature can't be blocked and has shroud.
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
"Unblockable" isn't a thing. It is not an ability a creature has. Instead, "can't be blocked" is just something true about it. However, Shroud is something Cloak is giving to Kaalia. So, Kaalia will lose Shroud but will still be unable to be blocked.
How come "unblockable" is not considered an ability? The only difference I see between this and Flying is that Flying is a keyword and "unblockable" is not, but that was never a reason to dismiss it. In fact, other abilities, like Vigilance or Haste, were not keyworded as well in the past, but that didn't stop them from being abilities. What am I missing here?
Well, because the rules say so. Not very satisfying an answer, I know, but that's how it is. And I think, things that got keyworded in the past, like vigilance, did work similarly in that that "ability" could not be removed, but the ability that was printed on the card which made it so could be removed, thus removing the effect.
112.12. An effect that sets an object’s characteristic, or simply states a quality of that object, is different
from an ability granted by an effect. When an object “gains” or “has” an ability, that ability can be
removed by another effect. If an effect defines a characteristic of the object (“[permanent] is
[characteristic value]”), it’s not granting an ability. (See rule 604.3.) Similarly, if an effect states a
quality of that object (“[creature] can’t be blocked,” for example), it’s neither granting an ability nor
setting a characteristic.
Example: Muraganda Petroglyphs reads, “Creatures with no abilities get +2/+2.” A
Runeclaw Bear (a creature with no abilities) enchanted by an Aura that says “Enchanted
creature has flying” would not get +2/+2. A Runeclaw Bear enchanted by an Aura that says
“Enchanted creature is red” or “Enchanted creature can’t be blocked” would get +2/+2.
How come "unblockable" is not considered an ability?
Because that's not something that it "gained" or "has".
Enchanted creature can block creatures with flying: Doesn't even attempt to alter characteristics (such as abilities).
Enchanted creature has "This creature can block creatures with flying.": Does grant an ability (the text in quotes).
Enchanted creature has reach: Does grant an ability (reach).
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Why bother with mere rulings when so many answers can be found in the Rules?
How come "unblockable" is not considered an ability?
Because that's not something that it "gained" or "has".
Enchanted creature can block creatures with flying: Doesn't even attempt to alter characteristics (such as abilities).
Enchanted creature has "This creature can block creatures with flying.": Does grant an ability (the text in quotes).
Enchanted creature has reach: Does grant an ability (reach).
So, what is the ultimate answer to my original question???
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
So, what happens if Sudden Spoiling is cast after a creature like Slither Blade is declared as attacker? Can the creature be blocked afterwards or not?
It can be blocked. Because the ability "Slither Blade can't be blocked" is removed by Sudden Spoiling. So nothing sets up a blocking restriction anymore.
So, you're saying the only reason Kaalia of the Vast remains unblockable after Sudden Spoiling is cast is because Whispersilk cloak has the word "is", instead of "gains" or "has", before "unblockable"?
The Oracle text of Whispersilk Cloak is "Equipped creature can't be blocked and has shroud." And yes, it is because the equipment says "equipped creature can't be blocked" instead of saying "Equipped creature has "this creature can't be blocked."" that Kaalia still can't be blocked even after the Spoiling has resolved.
So, you're saying the only reason Kaalia of the Vast remains unblockable after Sudden Spoiling is cast is because Whispersilk cloak has the word "is", instead of "gains" or "has", before "unblockable"?
The oracle text for the cloak is as follows:
Equipped creature can't be blocked and has shroud. (It can't be the target of spells or abilities.)
Shroud is an ability that the creature has and was granted by the cloak which is why it can be lost. It still can't be blocked because that is not an ability that kallia has it is the cloak modifying the rules of the game not giving kallia an ability.
I'm sorry guys, but I can't agree with this ruling. If "can't be blocked" is considered an ability in the Slither Blade scenario, it is an ability in the Whispersilk Cloak scenario as well.
I'm sorry guys, but I can't agree with this ruling. If "can't be blocked" is considered an ability in the Slither Blade scenario, it is an ability in the Whispersilk Cloak scenario as well.
Whispersilk Cloak doesn't grant it as an ability, it only exists as an ability of the Equipment itself. That's how it works.
I'm sorry guys, but I can't agree with this ruling. If "can't be blocked" is considered an ability in the Slither Blade scenario, it is an ability in the Whispersilk Cloak scenario as well.
Let me try to clarify this for you:
- "Slither Blade can't be blocked" is an ability. However, the phrase "can't be blocked" is not an ability because it isn't something that a creature can "have" or "gain"; it's simply something that's true about the creature.
- Whispersilk Cloak makes the equipped creature unable to be blocked and grants it shroud. It does grant the equipped creature an ability, but that ability is shroud. It is stating that the equipped creature can't be blocked because it's simply making a statement that is now true about the creature.
Restating the rule:
112.12. An effect that sets an object's characteristic, or simply states a quality of that object, is different from an ability granted by an effect. When an object "gains" or "has" an ability, that ability can be removed by another effect. If an effect defines a characteristic of the object ("[permanent] is [characteristic value]"), it's not granting an ability. (See rule 604.3.) Similarly, if an effect states a quality of that object ("[creature] can't be blocked," for example), it's neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic.
"Can't be blocked" is a quality of the creature, not an ability.
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The ability of Slither Blade is not "can't be blocked", but the rules text of the creature "Slither Blade can't be blocked". The text of Slither Blade as a whole is the ability, not what it says.
From the CR glossary
Ability 1. Text on an object that explains what that object does or can do.
2. An activated or triggered ability on the stack. This kind of ability is an object.
See rule 112, “Abilities,” and section 6, “Spells, Abilities, and Effects.”
Landwalk and islandwalk are keywords, so they can be easily worded with “gain” or “has”. It’s not the same thing as “can’t be blocked”. In this case it’s easier to word it simply as “Equipped creature can’t be blocked”, but this doesn’t mean the ability it’s not being granted to the creature.
If you look at the Unblockable page (https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Unblockable), there is a list of cards, including Whispersilk Cloak, granting this ability to creatures, and none of those cards uses the words “gain” or “has”.
It even says at some point “ Some spells also grant a creature unblockability, often along with shroud”, like Whispersilk Cloak.
Landwalk and islandwalk are keywords, so they can be easily worded with “gain” or “has”. It’s not the same thing as “can’t be blocked”. In this case it’s easier to word it simply as “Equipped creature can’t be blocked”, but this doesn’t mean the ability it’s not being granted to the creature.
If you look at the Unblockable page (https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Unblockable), there is a list of cards, including Whispersilk Cloak, granting this ability to creatures, and none of those cards uses the words “gain” or “has”.
It even says at some point “ Some spells also grant a creature unblockability, often along with shroud”, like Whispersilk Cloak.
Unblockable was still not considered a keyword ability before it was changed, but the rules were the same. "Unblockable" was not an ability, and nothing granted it or said that the creature "gains" or "has" it (don't use the wiki as a source for rules information) - just like "can't be blocked", "unblockable" was a quality of the creature, and anything that would appear to grant it was actually stating something that is now true about the creature (it is unblockable/it can't be blocked).
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However, the article itself mentions at several points, that the term "unblockable" is obsolete, so anything using that term also is. The rules as they are now, and which have been quoted here already, don't treat "can't be blocked" as an ability. Some abilities have that effect, but the effect of an ability is not the same as the ability.
Are there any cards or effects that grant the "can't be blocked" ability to creatures?
Ogre Marauder grants the ability to itself (if the defending player doesn't sacrifice a creature).
Whenever Ogre Marauder attacks, it gains "Ogre Marauder can't be blocked" until end of turn unless defending player sacrifices a creature.
If the Ogre Marauder player were to be targeted with Sudden Spoiling after the Marauder's trigger resolved (with the defending player opting to not sacrifice anything), it would lose the ability it granted itself and be blockable.
I'm sorry guys, but I can't agree with this ruling. If "can't be blocked" is considered an ability in the Slither Blade scenario, it is an ability in the Whispersilk Cloak scenario as well.
"can't be blocked" is a quality. Slither Blade has an ability that grants that quality to Slither Blade. Whispersilk Cloak has an ability that grants that quality to the equipped creature.
In the first instance, an ability of a creature gives that quality. In the second, an ability of a noncreature object gives that quality. This makes all the difference to Sudden Spoiling, since it only alters creatures.
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Take note that Whispersilk Cloak does not give ability to my Kaalia directly, that is, it is NOT Equipped creature has 'unblockable' and 'shroud'. Instead, it just says Equipped creature can't be blocked and has shroud.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Enchanted creature can block creatures with flying: Doesn't even attempt to alter characteristics (such as abilities).
Enchanted creature has "This creature can block creatures with flying.": Does grant an ability (the text in quotes).
Enchanted creature has reach: Does grant an ability (reach).
So, what is the ultimate answer to my original question???
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
The oracle text for the cloak is as follows:
Equipped creature can't be blocked and has shroud. (It can't be the target of spells or abilities.)
Shroud is an ability that the creature has and was granted by the cloak which is why it can be lost. It still can't be blocked because that is not an ability that kallia has it is the cloak modifying the rules of the game not giving kallia an ability.
Whispersilk Cloak doesn't grant it as an ability, it only exists as an ability of the Equipment itself. That's how it works.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Let me try to clarify this for you:
- "Slither Blade can't be blocked" is an ability. However, the phrase "can't be blocked" is not an ability because it isn't something that a creature can "have" or "gain"; it's simply something that's true about the creature.
- Whispersilk Cloak makes the equipped creature unable to be blocked and grants it shroud. It does grant the equipped creature an ability, but that ability is shroud. It is stating that the equipped creature can't be blocked because it's simply making a statement that is now true about the creature.
Restating the rule:
112.12. An effect that sets an object's characteristic, or simply states a quality of that object, is different from an ability granted by an effect. When an object "gains" or "has" an ability, that ability can be removed by another effect. If an effect defines a characteristic of the object ("[permanent] is [characteristic value]"), it's not granting an ability. (See rule 604.3.) Similarly, if an effect states a quality of that object ("[creature] can't be blocked," for example), it's neither granting an ability nor setting a characteristic.
"Can't be blocked" is a quality of the creature, not an ability.
From the CR glossary
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
If you look at the Unblockable page (https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Unblockable), there is a list of cards, including Whispersilk Cloak, granting this ability to creatures, and none of those cards uses the words “gain” or “has”.
It even says at some point “ Some spells also grant a creature unblockability, often along with shroud”, like Whispersilk Cloak.
Unblockable was still not considered a keyword ability before it was changed, but the rules were the same. "Unblockable" was not an ability, and nothing granted it or said that the creature "gains" or "has" it (don't use the wiki as a source for rules information) - just like "can't be blocked", "unblockable" was a quality of the creature, and anything that would appear to grant it was actually stating something that is now true about the creature (it is unblockable/it can't be blocked).
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
If the Ogre Marauder player were to be targeted with Sudden Spoiling after the Marauder's trigger resolved (with the defending player opting to not sacrifice anything), it would lose the ability it granted itself and be blockable.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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"can't be blocked" is a quality. Slither Blade has an ability that grants that quality to Slither Blade. Whispersilk Cloak has an ability that grants that quality to the equipped creature.
In the first instance, an ability of a creature gives that quality. In the second, an ability of a noncreature object gives that quality. This makes all the difference to Sudden Spoiling, since it only alters creatures.
Awesome avatar provided by Krashbot @ [Epic Graphics].