I want two Rallier triggers by cloning Rallier but I can't do that because Rallier is not targetable yet, so I clone Mikaeus, Image dies to legendary SBA, and returns due to Undying to clone the Rallier.
Do I get both revolt triggers because Image died to SBAs?
My understanding is that SBAs are checked after a spell resolves, and triggers cannot go on the stack until a player receives priority. Since SBAs are checked before a player receives priority, revolt will trigger for the non-cloned Rallier. The cloned Rallier will of course receive the trigger.
So things should play out:
Company Resolves - Image (Mikaeus) and Rallier are in play
SBAs are checked, Image (Mikaeus) dies
Player receives priority, Rallier trigger goes on the stack with Revolt
Glen Elendra Archmage is not legendary, and neither is Phantasmal Image or Renegade Rallier. If you put Phantasmal Image onto the battlefield as a copy of Glen Elendra Archmage, Phantasmal Image will gain the triggered ability mentioned on Phantasmal Image and that's it. Moreover, nothing is targeted as you put Phantasmal Image onto the battlefield this way (Phantasmal Image's ability doesn't say "target [something]" or use a keyword that does [C.R. 115.9]). However, if Phantasmal Image were to enter the battlefield under your control as a copy of Renegade Rallier, the ability Phantasmal Image would gain from Renegade Rallier would trigger provided a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn (C.R. 603.6a-b, 603.4).
EDIT: Clarifications after comment 11 was posted.
EDIT (Jul. 24): Edited to conform to edited comment 1.
EDIT (Feb. 12): Corrected rule citation.
EDIT (May 21, 2020): One rule was renumbered with Core Set 2020.
There is no reason for the Image to die, because it doesn't copy a legendary permanent, and if it doesn't copy anything, it won't have persist to come back.
Anyway, even if the Image copies a legendary permanent with persist and dies due to the legend rule after CoCo has resolved, the trigger of the Rallier didn't go off, because, while a trigger cannot go on the stack until a player would receive priority, it checks its trigger condition right after the triggering event occurs. And that trigger event includes the intervening-if. So if the clause isn't true during CoCo's resolution when the creatures are put onto the battlefield, you don't get a trigger from the Rallier. A returning Image copying the Rallier will trigger, though, as its previous incarnation has left the battlefild this turn.
Holy crap... I've been playing her as a legend ever since I saw this card. She just looks legendary... I am embarrassed x7, wow.
I suppose I could still ask if Glen was Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Granting Undying to the Image as a continuous effect.
Edit: right about the clone not targeting, I suppose I used the word carelessly, but targeting doesn't affect the question. Probably why I used it in the first place.
Holy crap... I've been playing her as a legend ever since I saw this card. She just looks legendary... I am embarrassed x7, wow.
I suppose I could still ask if Glen was Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Granting Undying to the Image as a continuous effect.
Part of your confusion may lie in the card's name: "Glen" can be a first name in real life, but is also a noun describing a land feature. The card's name is "Glen Elendra Archmage", not "Glen Elendra, Archmage", but rather something like "Archmage of the glen Elendra".
In the case of Mikaeus, the legend rule would bring all legendary permanents you control named Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, except one of your choice, into the graveyard (C.R. 704.5j). Assuming you choose the Phantasmal-Image-turned-Mikaeus this way and its undying ability triggers this way, then once undying resolves and you bring Phantasmal Image back to the battlefield as a copy of Renegade Rallier (C.R. 702.92a), its newly gained ability from Renegade Rallier will trigger, since a permanent you controlled (namely the old Phantasmal Image) left the battlefield this turn (C.R. 603.6a-b, 603.4).
EDIT: Clarification after comment 11 was posted.
EDIT (Sep. 28): One rule was renumbered with Ixalan.
EDIT (Nov. 9): Clarification.
EDIT (May 21, 2020): Correctness edit.
Holy crap... I've been playing her as a legend ever since I saw this card. She just looks legendary... I am embarrassed x7, wow.
I suppose I could still ask if Glen was Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Granting Undying to the Image as a continuous effect.
Edit: right about the clone not targeting, I suppose I used the word carelessly, but targeting doesn't affect the question. Probably why I used it in the first place.
If Glen was Mikaeus then yes you your situation would work as you describe.
Holy crap... I've been playing her as a legend ever since I saw this card. She just looks legendary... I am embarrassed x7, wow.
I suppose I could still ask if Glen was Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Granting Undying to the Image as a continuous effect.
Part of your confusion may lie in the card's name: "Glen" can be a first name in real life, but is also a noun describing a land feature. The card's name is "Glen Elendra Archmage", not "Glen Elendra, Archmage", but rather something like "Archmage of the glen Elendra".
Ha, ya, 100% what I was looking at, but I would counter with this. Naming convention seems pretty open and I didn't play during the faeries epidemic, so I've never seen Glen *the archmage* outside my own lists. I feel really bad now because I did this in a tournament this past week with Witness in place of Rallier and no one questioned it.
Anyway, even if the Image copies a legendary permanent with persist and dies due to the legend rule after CoCo has resolved, the trigger of the Rallier didn't go off, because, while a trigger cannot go on the stack until a player would receive priority, it checks its trigger condition right after the triggering event occurs. And that trigger event includes the intervening-if. So if the clause isn't true during CoCo's resolution when the creatures are put onto the battlefield, you don't get a trigger from the Rallier. A returning Image copying the Rallier will trigger, though, as its previous incarnation has left the battlefild this turn.
I'm not quite understanding your meaning. Isn't placing the trigger on the stack the time at which it checks if Revolt has been satisfied? It's not intuitive to say it is checking a game state that is no longer true.
That would invalidate past rulings where you could kill an opponent's 4/4 to cut Feed the Clan off from it's ferocious.
Anyway, even if the Image copies a legendary permanent with persist and dies due to the legend rule after CoCo has resolved, the trigger of the Rallier didn't go off, because, while a trigger cannot go on the stack until a player would receive priority, it checks its trigger condition right after the triggering event occurs. And that trigger event includes the intervening-if. So if the clause isn't true during CoCo's resolution when the creatures are put onto the battlefield, you don't get a trigger from the Rallier. A returning Image copying the Rallier will trigger, though, as its previous incarnation has left the battlefild this turn.
I'm not quite understanding your meaning. Isn't placing the trigger on the stack the time at which it checks if Revolt has been satisfied? It's not intuitive to say it is checking a game state that is no longer true.
That would invalidate past rulings where you could kill an opponent's 4/4 to cut Feed the Clan off from it's ferocious.
No, it doesn't invalidate that situation because they are completely different. Feed the Clan doesn't have a trigger (nor does every Revolt card for that matter). So, Feed the Clan checks whether the Ferocious condition is true *upon resolution*. Rallier (and other EtB triggers) check for the whether the trigger condition is true as soon as it hits the battlefield. This is during the resolution of Collected Company and nothing has died yet at that moment in time so it will not trigger.
To be clear, you are right that the trigger will not go onto the stack until after Company is done resolving and State Based Actions are checked, but that is not the same thing as waiting to trigger.
No, triggering and putting a trigger on the stack are two very different things, that happen at very different times. Whenever an event occurs, the game checks immediately afterwards for any conditions of triggered abilities, and if any are fulfilled, they go off. This can happen at any time, even during the resolution of a spell or ability. But, the trigger has to wait for its chance to go on the stack, which is right before the next time a player would receive priority. But no further check is done at this point, the ability has either triggered when the event occured or it didn't.
Feed the Clan doesn't have an itervening-if clause, it doesn't have a trigger at all. What it has is a selfreplacement effect, the condition for which is checked when the spell resolves. That's why you can kill off the only 4+ power creature controlled by the spell's controller and deny him the increased life gain.
Hm, interesting. I can see where you're coming from now. The conditions for triggering the effect are a permanent having left and Rallier entering, if those are satisfied at the same time then the effect goes on the stack. Like having to actually cast a spell before it can go on the stack; ie, the "cost" is separate from the resolution.
Thanks everyone and sorry for the Archmage confusion... But also thank you for clearing up the Archmage issue.
Glen Elendra ArchmageMikaeus, the Unhallowed in play, and I use Collected Company. My two chosen hits are Phantasmal Image and Renegade Rallier.I want two Rallier triggers by cloning Rallier but I can't do that because Rallier is not targetable yet, so I clone Mikaeus, Image dies to legendary SBA, and returns due to Undying to clone the Rallier.
Do I get both revolt triggers because Image died to SBAs?
My understanding is that SBAs are checked after a spell resolves, and triggers cannot go on the stack until a player receives priority. Since SBAs are checked before a player receives priority, revolt will trigger for the non-cloned Rallier. The cloned Rallier will of course receive the trigger.
So things should play out:
"Reveal a Dragon"
EDIT: Clarifications after comment 11 was posted.
EDIT (Jul. 24): Edited to conform to edited comment 1.
EDIT (Feb. 12): Corrected rule citation.
EDIT (May 21, 2020): One rule was renumbered with Core Set 2020.
Anyway, even if the Image copies a legendary permanent with persist and dies due to the legend rule after CoCo has resolved, the trigger of the Rallier didn't go off, because, while a trigger cannot go on the stack until a player would receive priority, it checks its trigger condition right after the triggering event occurs. And that trigger event includes the intervening-if. So if the clause isn't true during CoCo's resolution when the creatures are put onto the battlefield, you don't get a trigger from the Rallier. A returning Image copying the Rallier will trigger, though, as its previous incarnation has left the battlefild this turn.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
I suppose I could still ask if Glen was Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. Granting Undying to the Image as a continuous effect.
Edit: right about the clone not targeting, I suppose I used the word carelessly, but targeting doesn't affect the question. Probably why I used it in the first place.
"Reveal a Dragon"
In the case of Mikaeus, the legend rule would bring all legendary permanents you control named Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, except one of your choice, into the graveyard (C.R. 704.5j). Assuming you choose the Phantasmal-Image-turned-Mikaeus this way and its undying ability triggers this way, then once undying resolves and you bring Phantasmal Image back to the battlefield as a copy of Renegade Rallier (C.R. 702.92a), its newly gained ability from Renegade Rallier will trigger, since a permanent you controlled (namely the old Phantasmal Image) left the battlefield this turn (C.R. 603.6a-b, 603.4).
EDIT: Clarification after comment 11 was posted.
EDIT (Sep. 28): One rule was renumbered with Ixalan.
EDIT (Nov. 9): Clarification.
EDIT (May 21, 2020): Correctness edit.
If Glen was Mikaeus then yes you your situation would work as you describe.
Glen*the archmage* outside my own lists. I feel really bad now because I did this in a tournament this past week with Witness in place of Rallier and no one questioned it.Thank you!
Thread closed thougha whole ton less relevant to me now.Edit: Some disagreement about when Revolt checks.
"Reveal a Dragon"
That would invalidate past rulings where you could kill an opponent's 4/4 to cut Feed the Clan off from it's ferocious.
"Reveal a Dragon"
To be clear, you are right that the trigger will not go onto the stack until after Company is done resolving and State Based Actions are checked, but that is not the same thing as waiting to trigger.
Feed the Clan doesn't have an itervening-if clause, it doesn't have a trigger at all. What it has is a selfreplacement effect, the condition for which is checked when the spell resolves. That's why you can kill off the only 4+ power creature controlled by the spell's controller and deny him the increased life gain.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Thanks everyone and sorry for the Archmage confusion... But also thank you for clearing up the Archmage issue.
"Reveal a Dragon"