Scenario: I Act of Treason one of my opponent's (1) Wurmcoil Engine and move to combat. I attack him (1) with a lethal 28 damage and my other opponent (2) with the Wurmcoil engine. Opponent 1. Assigns no blockers and dies whereas opponent 2 blocks the Wurmcoil engine with a deathtouch creature killing it.
So the question is - Will I get the two tokens when Wurmcoil dies? From all the rulings I've seen when a player leaves the game all their cards are removed.
When combat damage is dealt, players lose the game before creatures die (rule 704.5: State-Based Actions.) And when that player loses, they leave the game immediately (rule 800.4a), taking with them all their stuff, before the game can proceed to kill creatures. So the Wurmcoil Engine is taken away to DeckBoxLand before it has the chance to die. So it never dies. So no tokens.
This is not correct. A player losing for having or less life is a state based action just like a creature dying for having received damage from a source with deathtouch since the last check. After combat damage was dealt, the first check of state based actions sees both of these and all applicable state based actions happen simultaneously. So the player loses at the same time the Wurmcoil Engine is destroyed. Since you controlled the source of the trigger right before it died, you will get your tokens. The trigger belongs to you, not your opponent so it will get to the stack and resolve.
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for
any of the listed conditions for state-based actions,then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the
check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on
the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the
result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player
gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no statebased
actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are
waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
704.5. The state-based actions are as follows:
704.5a If a player has 0 or less life, he or she loses the game.
[...]
704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with
deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed.
Regeneration can replace this event.
I don't think Rezzahan is right. This hinges on the meaning of "It happens as soon as the player leaves the game." in 800.4a. If you interpret it to mean "this is a separate one-shot effect that occurs immediately after the player leaves the game," then Wurmcoil would trigger. If you interpret it to mean "this is part of the event of a player leaving the game," then Wurmcoil would not trigger. I believe it has to be the latter. Under the former interpretation, the Wurmcoil would be in P1's graveyard immediately after the SBA check (which is a necessary condition for it to trigger), but P1 has already left the game. I don't think a player who is not in the game even has a graveyard. Especially given the parallel usage of "as soon as" in 800.4c, I don't think the Wurmcoil moves to the graveyard.
It seems to be simultaneous (as Rezzahan's post indicates). Yes, the player who lost the game leaves but that happens at the same time as the Wurmcoil being put into the graveyard. If they happen at the same time, then Wurmcoil dying has to happen which is all that matters. It seems the suggestion is that since the player leaves the game at the same time as the Wurmcoil dying means the Wurmcoil didn't die, but that doesn't make sense. Since the Wurmcoil died (even when the player leaves the game at the same time) suggests that triggers will occur.
For a creature to "die", it has to be on the battlefield and then in the graveyard. That is what dying means. It doesn't matter that you attempted to put the Wurmcoil into the graveyard, or that the Wurmcoil was destroyed, only that it was on the battlefield immediately before the event and in the graveyard immediately after the event (which is not the case here). That's why Leyline of the Void stops it from triggering. In this case, SBAs are simultaneously trying to move the Wurmcoil to the graveyard and make it leave the game. If you apply both of those at the same time, it's not going to the graveyard.
In this case, SBAs are simultaneously trying to move the Wurmcoil to the graveyard and make it leave the game. If you apply both of those at the same time, it's not going to the graveyard.
What's stopping it?
It goes to the graveyard and is removed from the game. Nothing stopped it from going to the GY - it's not a replacement effect.
Okay so lets identify what the word destroy means in MTG:
701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner’s graveyard.
So in this case we have two state based actions on that has a player losing the game and another destroying the Wurmcoil Engine and we can agree that both of those actions happen simultaneously. Since destroy means to put the permanent into its owners graveyard in essence what is happening simultaneously is the Wurmcoil is being put into the graveyard at the same time the player who owns it is losing the game. Since the Wurmcoil does actually go to the graveyard from the battlefield the ability does trigger and the player gets the two tokens.
The reason the Leyline works is because it's a replacement effect, so the event still happens just a modified form of it. In that case the creature would indeed not hit the graveyard and the ability would not trigger. So if there was a Leyline out the Wurmcoil would be exiled at the same time the owner lost the game and obviously not trigger.
In what sense do you think the Wurmcoil "actually" goes to the graveyard if there is no point at which it's in a player's graveyard? As far as the game is concerned, (1) Wurmcoil is on the battlefield, (2) SBAs are applied, (3) Wurmcoil doesn't exist.
I guess you could try argue that 400.6 applies, but that has the unfortunate side effect that the Wurmcoil would never leave the game, and continue existing with no owner.
In what sense do you think the Wurmcoil "actually" goes to the graveyard if there is no point at which it's in a player's graveyard? As far as the game is concerned, (1) Wurmcoil is on the battlefield, (2) SBAs are applied, (3) Wurmcoil doesn't exist.
I guess you could try argue that 400.6 applies, but that has the unfortunate side effect that the Wurmcoil would never leave the game, and continue existing with no owner.
704.5h If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and it’s been dealt damage by a source with
deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked, that creature is destroyed.
What does destroyed mean?
701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner’s graveyard.
Which means that for 704.5h to apply it must go to the owner's graveyard.
And they all involve replacement effects.
704.5h specifies the creature is destroyed. 701.7a clarifies that means it goes to a graveyard. "Dies" means going from the battlefield to the graveyard.
Based on the cited rules, the Wurmcoil Engine goes to a graveyard at the same time the player loses the game. Do you have rules citations showing otherwise?
No, there are other ways. I'll leave that to you to think about.
Do you have rules citations showing otherwise?
Yes, and I provided them.
704.3: All SBAs happen simultaneously as a single event
800.4a: The Wurmcoil ceases to exist as part of an SBA
Therefore, the Wurmcoil transitions from being on the battlefield to not existing. It's never in the graveyard, so it didn't move to the graveyard.
You seem to think that the Wurmcoil goes to the graveyard and then leaves the game from there, as two events. This is obviously false by 704.3. Or maybe you think that it "counts" as going to the graveyard because it was destroyed, which just doesn't have any basis.
Yes, and I provided them.
704.3: All SBAs happen simultaneously as a single event
So you agree 704.5h happens - which requires the Wurmcoil to be destroyed.
800.4a: The Wurmcoil ceases to exist as part of an SBA
So it doesn't get destroyed? Even though 704.5h requires it?
Therefore, the Wurmcoil transitions from being on the battlefield to not existing. It's never in the graveyard, so it didn't move to the graveyard.
Cite your rule that changes the meaning of destroyed as 704.5h requires then - because 800.4a doesn't change that.
You seem to think that the Wurmcoil goes to the graveyard and then leaves the game from there, as two events. This is obviously false by 704.3. Or maybe you think that it "counts" as going to the graveyard because it was destroyed, which just doesn't have any basis.
No.
It goes to the graveyard and leaves the game. As a single event. Because that's what 704.5h requires (definition of "destroyed") and 800.4a requires (leaving the game).
You seem to assume that 704.5h can't apply as written but have so far failed to explain why - 800.4a doesn't say what you assert it does.
State based actions occur simultaneously, correct?
So the player loses the game at the same time the Wurmcoil is destroyed. And then they leave the game.
Yes, the Wurmcoil is destroyed, but it doesn't go to the graveyard. A card can't go the the graveyard then leave the game as a single event, because that's not a single event. Even if it could, there's not reason to think it would happen in that order. I'm done here.
So the player loses the game at the same time the Wurmcoil is destroyed. And then they leave the game.
When a player leaves the game, all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the
game and any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end. Then, if that
player controlled any objects on the stack not represented by cards, those objects cease to exist.
Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not
a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the
game had priority at the time he or she left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who’s
still in the game.
happens in the same motion as the player losing the game?
The rules are quite clear on what happens. State-based actions are checked. So opponent (1) loses the game and Wurmcoil Engine dies. Before state-based actions are checked again all objects owned by opponent (1) leave the game. However Wurmcoil has already fulfilled the requirement for its ability so even though the ability isn't even on the stack yet the non existence of Wurmcoil isn't a problem the ability goes on the stack and resolves as normal.
To make it clear. Rule 800.4a specifically says it isn't a state-based action so trying to say it should happen at the same time as other state-based actions is obviously flawed. It interrupting state-based actions is illogical because there is nothing to interrupt, all actions are preformed simultaneously. So logically it must occur after the check that caused the player to lose the game but before another check occurs.
I had some time to think about this during a several hours long train trip. And I got quite unsure about my earlier interpretation, and would tend to the dies trigger not going off now. I got too hung up on the "the player loses first" statement, that I didn't examine the scenario much further.
The only rule I found, that could shed some light on this is
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If
the object is moving to a public zone and its owner will be able to look at it in that zone, its owner
looks at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. If the object is moving to the
battlefield, each other player who will be able to look at it in that zone does so. Then any
appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied
to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things
to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which
effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be
mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.) Then the event moves the
object.
I can see some problems about applying it here, but I'm too tired right now to think it through. Food for thought for anyone who wants to chime in.
No, there are other ways. I'll leave that to you to think about.
Other than the ruling that is in dispute in this very thread, can you provide any example of a creature (1) being destroyed, (2) not being put in the graveyard, with (3) no replacement effects getting involved? "You figure it out" won't cut it, I'm afraid.
No, there are other ways. I'll leave that to you to think about.
Other than the ruling that is in dispute in this very thread, can you provide any example of a creature (1) being destroyed, (2) not being put in the graveyard, with (3) no replacement effects getting involved? "You figure it out" won't cut it, I'm afraid.
It's possible that he thinks that the "Indestructible" ability does this. I can Doom Blade a Darksteel Colossus legally, but it just isn't destroyed and it's not a replacement effect like regeneration. Of course if it can't be destroyed then it isn't destroyed, so his point is moot. But I can see his confusion.
What I don't get is how he is seeing 704.3 as evidence that you do not get the trigger since if all the actions are happening simultaneously, the Wormcoil must have gone to the graveyard by default. This is just like a Wormcoil Engine token going to the graveyard. It disappears as a state-based action, but it still went to the graveyard. If the effect can occur when a token copy dies, then it can occur if it dies at the same time its owner loses.
What I don't get is how he is seeing 704.3 as evidence that you do not get the trigger since if all the actions are happening simultaneously, the Wormcoil must have gone to the graveyard by default. This is just like a Wormcoil Engine token going to the graveyard. It disappears as a state-based action, but it still went to the graveyard. If the effect can occur when a token copy dies, then it can occur if it dies at the same time its owner loses.
A token dying from damage and a token in the gaveyard ceasing to exist happen during seperate checks of state based actions, since the later is not applicable when the first check occurs (the token is not yet in the graveyard, it's on the battlefield with lehtal damage marked). Remember, when SBAs are checked and they had to do something, they are rechecked afterwards. This goes on until no SBAs happen. In the scenario given in this thread however, the player losing and thus leaving the game and the token dying happen during the same check of SBAs.
What I don't get is how he is seeing 704.3 as evidence that you do not get the trigger since if all the actions are happening simultaneously, the Wormcoil must have gone to the graveyard by default. This is just like a Wormcoil Engine token going to the graveyard. It disappears as a state-based action, but it still went to the graveyard. If the effect can occur when a token copy dies, then it can occur if it dies at the same time its owner loses.
A token dying from damage and a token in the gaveyard ceasing to exist happen during seperate checks of state based actions, since the later is not applicable when the first check occurs (the token is not yet in the graveyard, it's on the battlefield with lehtal damage marked). Remember, when SBAs are checked and they had to do something, they are rechecked afterwards. This goes on until no SBAs happen. In the scenario given in this thread however, the player losing and thus leaving the game and the token dying happen during the same check of SBAs.
Ah, you're correct. I guess it's not directly comparable. My bad.
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So the question is - Will I get the two tokens when Wurmcoil dies? From all the rulings I've seen when a player leaves the game all their cards are removed.
This is not correct. A player losing for having or less life is a state based action just like a creature dying for having received damage from a source with deathtouch since the last check. After combat damage was dealt, the first check of state based actions sees both of these and all applicable state based actions happen simultaneously. So the player loses at the same time the Wurmcoil Engine is destroyed. Since you controlled the source of the trigger right before it died, you will get your tokens. The trigger belongs to you, not your opponent so it will get to the stack and resolve.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
What's stopping it?
It goes to the graveyard and is removed from the game. Nothing stopped it from going to the GY - it's not a replacement effect.
So in this case we have two state based actions on that has a player losing the game and another destroying the Wurmcoil Engine and we can agree that both of those actions happen simultaneously. Since destroy means to put the permanent into its owners graveyard in essence what is happening simultaneously is the Wurmcoil is being put into the graveyard at the same time the player who owns it is losing the game. Since the Wurmcoil does actually go to the graveyard from the battlefield the ability does trigger and the player gets the two tokens.
The reason the Leyline works is because it's a replacement effect, so the event still happens just a modified form of it. In that case the creature would indeed not hit the graveyard and the ability would not trigger. So if there was a Leyline out the Wurmcoil would be exiled at the same time the owner lost the game and obviously not trigger.
I guess you could try argue that 400.6 applies, but that has the unfortunate side effect that the Wurmcoil would never leave the game, and continue existing with no owner.
What does destroyed mean?
Which means that for 704.5h to apply it must go to the owner's graveyard.
Do you have a reason 704.5h doesn't apply?
704.5h specifies the creature is destroyed. 701.7a clarifies that means it goes to a graveyard. "Dies" means going from the battlefield to the graveyard.
Based on the cited rules, the Wurmcoil Engine goes to a graveyard at the same time the player loses the game. Do you have rules citations showing otherwise?
Yes, and I provided them.
704.3: All SBAs happen simultaneously as a single event
800.4a: The Wurmcoil ceases to exist as part of an SBA
Therefore, the Wurmcoil transitions from being on the battlefield to not existing. It's never in the graveyard, so it didn't move to the graveyard.
You seem to think that the Wurmcoil goes to the graveyard and then leaves the game from there, as two events. This is obviously false by 704.3. Or maybe you think that it "counts" as going to the graveyard because it was destroyed, which just doesn't have any basis.
So you agree 704.5h happens - which requires the Wurmcoil to be destroyed.
So it doesn't get destroyed? Even though 704.5h requires it?
Cite your rule that changes the meaning of destroyed as 704.5h requires then - because 800.4a doesn't change that.
No.
It goes to the graveyard and leaves the game. As a single event. Because that's what 704.5h requires (definition of "destroyed") and 800.4a requires (leaving the game).
You seem to assume that 704.5h can't apply as written but have so far failed to explain why - 800.4a doesn't say what you assert it does.
State based actions occur simultaneously, correct?
So the player loses the game at the same time the Wurmcoil is destroyed. And then they leave the game.
Okay, you just haven't read the thread at all.
Flame warning issued. -MadMage
And yet again, no rules citation saying that the definition of "destroyed" changes. Cool!
Except the rules say it is - since all SBAs happen simultaneously.
The order isn't relevant - the Wurmcoil demonstrably dies, by definition.
Well, I have - and I've cited rules literally every step. I've supported my thought process at every turn.
You've made assertions and failed to cite rules when asked. Good talk.
Flame warning issued. -MadMage
game and any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end. Then, if that
player controlled any objects on the stack not represented by cards, those objects cease to exist.
Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not
a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the
game had priority at the time he or she left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who’s
still in the game.
The rules are quite clear on what happens. State-based actions are checked. So opponent (1) loses the game and Wurmcoil Engine dies. Before state-based actions are checked again all objects owned by opponent (1) leave the game. However Wurmcoil has already fulfilled the requirement for its ability so even though the ability isn't even on the stack yet the non existence of Wurmcoil isn't a problem the ability goes on the stack and resolves as normal.
To make it clear. Rule 800.4a specifically says it isn't a state-based action so trying to say it should happen at the same time as other state-based actions is obviously flawed. It interrupting state-based actions is illogical because there is nothing to interrupt, all actions are preformed simultaneously. So logically it must occur after the check that caused the player to lose the game but before another check occurs.
The only rule I found, that could shed some light on this is
I can see some problems about applying it here, but I'm too tired right now to think it through. Food for thought for anyone who wants to chime in.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
It's possible that he thinks that the "Indestructible" ability does this. I can Doom Blade a Darksteel Colossus legally, but it just isn't destroyed and it's not a replacement effect like regeneration. Of course if it can't be destroyed then it isn't destroyed, so his point is moot. But I can see his confusion.
What I don't get is how he is seeing 704.3 as evidence that you do not get the trigger since if all the actions are happening simultaneously, the Wormcoil must have gone to the graveyard by default. This is just like a Wormcoil Engine token going to the graveyard. It disappears as a state-based action, but it still went to the graveyard. If the effect can occur when a token copy dies, then it can occur if it dies at the same time its owner loses.
A token dying from damage and a token in the gaveyard ceasing to exist happen during seperate checks of state based actions, since the later is not applicable when the first check occurs (the token is not yet in the graveyard, it's on the battlefield with lehtal damage marked). Remember, when SBAs are checked and they had to do something, they are rechecked afterwards. This goes on until no SBAs happen. In the scenario given in this thread however, the player losing and thus leaving the game and the token dying happen during the same check of SBAs.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Ah, you're correct. I guess it's not directly comparable. My bad.