MTG Salvation

Everlasting Torment is in play, and when Flayer of the Hatebound returns from Undying I hit itself with the damage, will it cause an infinite loop until I decide to hit a player with Hatebound?

More like a general question about how -1/-1 counter and +1/+1 counter interacts with a comes into battlefield triggers v.s. effect from an enchantment.

No, you won't get a loop.

What happens is that flayer returns with a +1/+1 counter on it.

Flayer deals 5 damage to itself changing intp 5 -1/-1 counters.

At this time SBA are performed, and the +1 and -1 counters take each other out. But at the same time the flayer is seen as having less than 0 toughness and is put into the graveyard.

Last known stats are used to determine undying and the last time it existed on the battlefield it had both +1 and -1 counters on it, and since it had a +1 counter on it undying won't trigger.

704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends. #


704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.

704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.

704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.

You don't get an infinite loop here.
As when the Flayer deals damage to itself, it puts five -1/-1 counters on it. The game then sees two things when State Based Actions are checked. It sees a creature with 0 or less toughness AND also it sees a creature with both a +1/+1 counter and -1/-1 counters.
While the two different counters cancel each other out, however Flayer of the Hatebound is put into your graveyard at the same time. So Undying won't trigger again, since the game still saw the Flayer with a +1/+1 counter on it when it died.

Hope that helps.

I see, so counters cancel each other out only when they have a chance to do so, which is after state check on the creature's life/death.

But since this situation checks the +1/+1 counter (hence denies the Hatehound from coming back again), it also check any death effect in relate to -1/-1 counters as well, yes?

Quote from cyberium_neo »

I see, so counters cancel each other out only when they have a chance to do so, which is after state check on the creature's life/death.

But since this situation checks the +1/+1 counter (hence denies the Hatehound from coming back again), it also check any death effect in relate to -1/-1 counters as well, yes?

IT doesn't cancel out counters after checkign for death, it checks both at the same time and performs the actions simultaneously. But when determining undying last known information is used which is basically what the creature looked like on the battlefield before SBA.

Not entirely sure what you are asking about with -1 counters but if you mean that the same thing applies for -1 counter checks then yes.

Quote from HugSeal »

Quote from cyberium_neo »

I see, so counters cancel each other out only when they have a chance to do so, which is after state check on the creature's life/death.

But since this situation checks the +1/+1 counter (hence denies the Hatehound from coming back again), it also check any death effect in relate to -1/-1 counters as well, yes?

IT doesn't cancel out counters after checkign for death, it checks both at the same time and performs the actions simultaneously. But when determining undying last known information is used which is basically what the creature looked like on the battlefield before SBA.

Not entirely sure what you are asking about with -1 counters but if you mean that the same thing applies for -1 counter checks then yes.

Is it possible to remove the +1/+1 counter first with Fevered Convulsions before the damage, and lead the Hatehound to return again?

Yes, you can respond to the Flayer's damage dealing trigger. If that response causes the +1/+1 counter to be removed before the trigger resolves (like state based actions annihilating those counters after the response resolved), undying can trigger again.

You could even increase the Flayer's power with some effect to have it deal more damage. Likewise, an opponent could decrease its power to make it deal less.

Quote from cyberium_neo »

Quote from HugSeal »

Quote from cyberium_neo »

I see, so counters cancel each other out only when they have a chance to do so, which is after state check on the creature's life/death.

But since this situation checks the +1/+1 counter (hence denies the Hatehound from coming back again), it also check any death effect in relate to -1/-1 counters as well, yes?

IT doesn't cancel out counters after checkign for death, it checks both at the same time and performs the actions simultaneously. But when determining undying last known information is used which is basically what the creature looked like on the battlefield before SBA.

Not entirely sure what you are asking about with -1 counters but if you mean that the same thing applies for -1 counter checks then yes.

Is it possible to remove the +1/+1 counter first with Fevered Convulsions before the damage, and lead the Hatehound to return again?

Yes. You activate Fevered Convulsions with the flayer trigger on the stack. this counter is canceled out with the +1 counter on the flayer and then flayers trigger resolves dealing damage to itself killing it.

Thank you both!

Odd, another forum member suggested that it is possible to create the loop. We're talking about the new card The Scorpion God in this case. Here is the link to that thread:

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/778265-the-scorpion-god-lets-brew

Quote from cyberium_neo »

Odd, another forum member suggested that it is possible to create the loop. We're talking about the new card The Scorpion God in this case. Here is the link to that thread:

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/778265-the-scorpion-god-lets-brew

The Scorpion God's first ability differs from undying in that it checks whether the creature in question had at least one -1/-1 counter on it, not whether it had no +1/+1 counters on it, as is the case with undying (C.R. 603.2, 603.4, 702.92a).

If a creature with a +1/+1 counter and and -1/-1 counter on it dies due to a state-based action for having toughness 0 or less, it will simultaneously go to the graveyard and have its -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters removed from it in pairs (C.R. 704.5f, 704.5q, 704.3); thus it will have a -1/-1 counter and a +1/+1 counter at the last moment it's on the battlefield, so The Scorpion God's first ability will trigger, but not undying (C.R. 603.4). (Note that those two abilities are leaves-the-battlefield abilities [C.R. 702.92a, 603.6c], so they check the state of the game from just before the permanent leaves the battlefield, not after [C.R. 603.10a, 603.10; see also C.R. 704.7 for this case especially].)

EDIT (Sep. 28): One rule was renumbered with Ixalan.