If I have say, a memnite and arcbound ravager out, and someone gives the memnite -2/-2 (UEoT), in response to that can someone sac a bunch of artifacts, then sac arcbound ravager to give the memnite like +3/+3 all in one move?
You can save your Memnite if you respond to the spell or ability that would give it -2/-2 by activating the Arcbound Ravager's ability at least twice before sacrificing the Ravager to itself to allow you to move its +1/+1 counters to your Memnite. Those abilities will all resolve before the spell or ability that gives the Memnite -2/-2, and assuming your opponent doesn't respond to your ability activations with something else, your Memnite will live.
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You can save your Memnite if you respond to the spell or ability that would give it -2/-2 by activating the Arcbound Ravager's ability at least twice before sacrificing the Ravager to itself to allow you to move its +1/+1 counters to your Memnite. Those abilities will all resolve before the spell or ability that gives the Memnite -2/-2, and assuming your opponent doesn't respond to your ability activations with something else, your Memnite will live.
Okay, I still don't see why though. The cost of the sacrifice happens instantly because it's a cost, but when the counters are placed is where it's unclear. If we looked at the stack, it would show that arcbound ravager is the last thing on the stack, which means it happens first when the stack resolves. But if that's actually true, the other 3 counters couldn't have been placed on arcbound ravager in time because it would already have sacrificed itself first. Whether the sacrifice is instant or on the stack, it doesn't seem like the counters can be placed on ravager in time.
The stack resolves one spell or ability at a time, not all at once. After each spell or ability has resolved, everyone gets priority again before the next spell or ability resolves. So you can activate the Ravager's ability, let it resolve, then repeat, then after those activations have resolved, sacrifice the Ravager itself and put the counters on Memnite, all before the spell or ability that would give Memnite -2/-2 resolves.
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Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
You don't have to do all at once, yo can let something of yours resolve and still be able to respond to the spell afterwards.
So you can sacrifice an artifact to the Ravager in response to the -2/-2 spell, let that activation resolve (which puts a +1/+1 counter on the Ravager), then still in response to your opponent's spell, you sacrifice the Ravager to itself (that ability will do nothing when it resolves because the Ravager is gone), which triggers the modular ability. That ability will go on top of the stack above the Ravager's activated ability (the one that will do nothing), which is above your opponent's spell. Assuming no player does anything else to interrupt the following chain, the modular ability will put +1/+1 counters on the Memnite (as many as there were on the Ravager, so at least 2) making it a 3/3 or bigger, the activated ability resolves and does nothing, then your opponent's spell finally resolves maiking your Memnite a 1/1 again.
The stack resolves one spell or ability at a time, not all at once. After each spell or ability has resolved, everyone gets priority again before the next spell or ability resolves. So you can activate the Ravager's ability, let it resolve, then repeat, then after those activations have resolved, sacrifice the Ravager itself and put the counters on Memnite, all before the spell or ability that would give Memnite -2/-2 resolves.
I'm still not seeing how that makes sense, because the counters can't be placed on arcbound ravager if it's already sacrificed, and therefore can't modulate them to something else. You still didn't clear up at what speed the sacrifice happens, I'm just guessing, so until someone addresses that this topic can't begin to be resolved. It seems like either way, the sacrifice will resolve first, before counters can be placed on ravager, meaning it can't modulate them in time. If I let one counter-placement ability resolve, that means I've already passed priority and so has my opponent which means all abilities start resolving, which means I can only place one counter on memnite at most from ravager's first-priority or instant-cost sacrifice.
There is no speed in Magic. Get rid of that idea and avoid such terminology altogether.
The sacrifice happens during the process of activating the ability, when you pay its costs, as it is a cost to activate said ability. Which means for most purposes, immediately when you decide to activate the ability ("immediately" in the sense, that the opponent doesn't get a chance to interrupt it or respond to it). That doesn't mean that all sacrifces happen immediately, though, it can also happen as part of resolving a spell/ability, if that spell's/ability's effect instructs such an action. So, if it is a cost (like in the example of the Ravager), you sacrifice as a cost. If it is an effect, you sacrifice as the effect during the resolution.
-2/-2 is placed
In response, you place a 1/1 counter on Arcbound
It resolves. At this point, both players must again pass priority for the -2/-2 to resolve, but
In this priority, you place a 1/1 counter on Arcbound.
It resolves. Arcbound is now a 0/0 with (at least) 3 counters on it.
Both players must again pass priority for the -2/-2 to resolve, but
In this priority, you sacrifice Arcbound and put the counters on Memnite.
It resolves. Memnite now has enough toughness to survive the -2/-2, so you let the -2/-2 trigger resolve.
There is no speed in Magic. Get rid of that idea and avoid such terminology altogether.
The sacrifice happens during the process of activating the ability, when you pay its costs, as it is a cost to activate said ability. Which means for most purposes, immediately when you decide to activate the ability ("immediately" in the sense, that the opponent doesn't get a chance to interrupt it or respond to it). That doesn't mean that all sacrifces happen immediately, though, it can also happen as part of resolving a spell/ability, if that spell's/ability's effect instructs such an action. So, if it is a cost (like in the example of the Ravager), you sacrifice as a cost. If it is an effect, you sacrifice as the effect during the resolution.
Okay, so ravager resolves instantly without anyone getting a chance to respond to it because it's a cost of doing something else. That means counters can't be placed on it soon enough. The sacrifice happens instantly, but the placing counters doesn't, so ravager sacs itself, but then the counters have no target and will not get modulated, only the 1 counter that ravager started with will be modulated, and memnite will die. This means the only way to win would be to have anticipated the -2/-2 first.
The stack resolves one spell or ability at a time, not all at once. After each spell or ability has resolved, everyone gets priority again before the next spell or ability resolves. So you can activate the Ravager's ability, let it resolve, then repeat, then after those activations have resolved, sacrifice the Ravager itself and put the counters on Memnite, all before the spell or ability that would give Memnite -2/-2 resolves.
I'm still not seeing how that makes sense, because the counters can't be placed on arcbound ravager if it's already sacrificed, and therefore can't modulate them to something else. You still didn't clear up at what speed the sacrifice happens, I'm just guessing, so until someone addresses that this topic can't begin to be resolved. It seems like regardless of the speed though, the sacrifice will resolve first, before counters can be placed on ravager, meaning it can't modulate them in time. If I let one ability resolve, that means I've passed priority and so has my opponent which means all abilities start resolving, which means I can only place one counter on memnite at most.
Memnite is targeted with Echoing Decay
In response, you sacrifice an Ornithopter to Ravager's ability, so it goes onto the stack.
Both players pass priority so the ability resolves. Ravager now has 2 counters on it.
You decide to sacrifice another Thopter to Ravager. So, the ability goes onto the stack.
Both players pass priority, so the ability resolves and now Ravager has 3 counters on it.
You then sacrifice Ravager to itself. Its ability goes onto the stack.
On top of that, its trigger goes onto the stack. You target Memnite with the trigger.
Both players pass priority so the trigger resolves. Memnite now has 3 counters on it.
Both players pass priority again so the activated ability resolves but does nothing since Ravager is gone.
Both players pass priority again without doing anything so Echoing Decay resolves.
Memnite is now a 2/2 (1/1 + 3 +1/+1 counters - -2/-2 from Decay).
The important part is that Decay won't resolve until both players pass priority without doing anything and you don't. You keep activating Ravager's ability so it will go on top of (and resolve before) Decay.
Assume a player casts Infest. In response to that, the controller of Memnite and Arcbound Ravager, when he or she has priority, sacrifices artifacts other than either by activating Arcbound Ravager's first ability once for each such artifact (C.R. 116.7, 116.1b) (note that those abilities will go on the stack above Infest [C.R. 405.2] and get to resolve before Infest [C.R. 116.4, 116.7], and that that player will get priority each time [C.R. 602.2b, 601.2i]), then waits until all those abilities leave the stack, usually by resolving (note that for a spell or ability to resolve, all players must pass in a row [C.R. 116.4]). Finally, when he or she has priority again, assuming Arcbound Ravager is still on the battlefield, that player finally sacrifices Arcbound Ravager with its first ability (C.R. 116.1b). This will make Arcbound Ravager's modular ability trigger and go on the stack (C.R. 603.2, 602.2b, 601.2i, 116.5, 702.42a). That player targets Memnite with that ability (C.R. 602.2b, 601.2c, 112.8), and when it resolves, as many +1/+1 counters are put on Memnite as the number of +1/+1 counters Arcbound Ravager had (C.R. 702.42a).
The artifacts are sacrificed as part of the cost of activating the Ravager's ability. And again, as previously mentioned, if you and your opponent pass priority on the stack without doing anything, only the top spell or ability resolves: you do not resolve everything on the stack. After you resolve the top spell or ability, everyone gets priority again before the next spell or ability resolves. So here's what happens.
Your opponent casts their spell targeting Memnite.
You respond by activating the Ravager's ability, sacrificing a random artifact.
That ability resolves, and the Ravager gets a +1/+1 counter (now it has two +1/+1 counters on it).
Still in response to the opponent's spell, you activate the Ravager's ability again, sacrificing another random artifact.
That ability resolves, and the Ravager gets a +1/+1 counter (now it has three +1/+1 counters on it).
Still in response to the opponent's spell, you activate the Ravager's ability again, sacrificing the Ravager itself.
That causes the dies ability to trigger, and when it resolves, since the Ravager had three +1/+1 counters on it when it died, you get to put three +1/+1 counters on the Memnite (the Ravager's ability still resolves, but does nothing since the Ravager is no longer on the battlefield).
Then your opponent's spell finally resolves, and Memnite lives and ends up as a 2/2 for the turn.
The key point is that you are letting the Ravager's activated abilities resolve, then sacrificing the Ravager itself. You're not activating the ability multiple times then sacrificing the Ravager, you're activating it, letting those abilities resolve and giving the Ravager the counters, then you're sacrificing the Ravager.
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In response, you sacrifice an Ornithopter to Ravager's ability, so it goes onto the stack.
Both players pass priority so the ability resolves.
Then so does the -2/-2 ability after that. You don't get a chance to sacrifice again. Which part of the stack suggests otherwise? It's still not apparent.
The artifacts are sacrificed as part of the cost of activating the Ravager's ability. And again, as previously mentioned, if you and your opponent pass priority on the stack without doing anything, only the top spell or ability resolves: you do not resolve everything on the stack. After you resolve the top spell or ability, everyone gets priority again before the next spell or ability resolves. So here's what happens.
Your opponent casts their spell targeting Memnite.
You respond by activating the Ravager's ability, sacrificing a random artifact.
That ability resolves, and the Ravager gets a +1/+1 counter (now it has two +1/+1 counters on it).
Still in response to the opponent's spell, you activate the Ravager's ability again, sacrificing another random artifact.
That ability resolves, and the Ravager gets a +1/+1 counter (now it has three +1/+1 counters on it).
Still in response to the opponent's spell, you activate the Ravager's ability again, sacrificing the Ravager itself.
That causes the dies ability to trigger, and when it resolves, since the Ravager had three +1/+1 counters on it when it died, you get to put three +1/+1 counters on the Memnite (the Ravager's ability still resolves, but does nothing since the Ravager is no longer on the battlefield).
Then your opponent's spell finally resolves, and Memnite lives and ends up as a 2/2 for the turn.
So somehow during the entier time, the -2/-2 spell is in limbo, and you can just arbitrarily activate your abilities at infinite speed compared to decay because they were cast at a later time? It seems like the only important mechanic here is the priority passing because it takes both players mutually agree to pass priority for the last thing on the stack to resolve. Once priority passes back to the controller of arcbound, then don't have to let the stack resolve, they can do this weird time displacement thing where another ability that was activated later can happen first, and only after they finally say "okay, I'm done doing things when I have priority" everything resolves with the counters on memnite.
Objects on the stack don't resolve until both players pass priority without doing anything while that object is the topmost object on the stack. At no point in the sequence above do both players pass priority in succession without doing anything while Echoing Decay in on top of the stack. As already mentioned, each object on the stack resolves individually. The stack itself never resolves. Objects can be added at any time. So, you keep adding the Ravager's activated ability after each previous ability resolves. You are still not passing priority with Decay on top of the stack. When Decay becomes the topmost object, you are sacrificing another artifact to add Ravager's ability to the top of the stack. So, in that sense, yes, Decay is in "limbo" waiting for other things to be added (and resolve).
At no point in the sequence above do both players pass priority in succession without doing anything while Echoing Decay in on top of the stack.
You mean...bottom of the stack right? Because if not, then we're all the way back to the beginning. I've never heard of anyone stacking things downward into the ground, I've only ever seen things get stacked upwards, so when spells go on the stack, the most recently played spell or ability goes on top and thus resolves first.
That is how the stack works, and has worked since its inception. When your opponent casts the spell, it sits on the stack, not really doing anything until it resolves. And it won't resolve until it's the top spell or ability on the stack, and all players pass priority without doing anything. The stack does not resolve: spell or abilities on the stack resolves, and they resolve one at a time, not all at once. So this interation is 100% legal:
Player A casts Infest. Stack looks like this:
Infest
Player B, when they get priority, activates the Ravager's ability. Stack looks like this:
Ravager activated ability
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's ability). After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Infest
When Player B gets priority again, they activate the Ravager's ability again. The stack looks like this:
Ravager activated ability
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's ability). After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Infest
When Player B gets priority again, they activate the Ravager's ability again, but this time, they sacrifice the Ravager itself. The stack looks like this:
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's triggered ability) and Memnite gets the coutners. After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Ravager activated ability
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's ability, but does nothing since Ravager is no longer in play). After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, Infest, which won't kill the now 4/4 Memnite due to the counters it just got). Now the stack is empty.
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Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
There is no speed in Magic. Get rid of that idea and avoid such terminology altogether.
The sacrifice happens during the process of activating the ability, when you pay its costs, as it is a cost to activate said ability. Which means for most purposes, immediately when you decide to activate the ability ("immediately" in the sense, that the opponent doesn't get a chance to interrupt it or respond to it). That doesn't mean that all sacrifces happen immediately, though, it can also happen as part of resolving a spell/ability, if that spell's/ability's effect instructs such an action. So, if it is a cost (like in the example of the Ravager), you sacrifice as a cost. If it is an effect, you sacrifice as the effect during the resolution.
Okay, so ravager resolves instantly without anyone getting a chance to respond to it because it's a cost of doing something else. That means counters can't be placed on it soon enough. The sacrifice happens instantly, but the placing counters doesn't, so ravager sacs itself, but then the counters have no target and will not get modulated, only the 1 counter that ravager started with will be modulated, and memnite will die. This means the only way to win would be to have anticipated the -2/-2 first.
No, the Ravager's ability doesn't resolve instantly. Like all non mana abilities it goes onto the stack, where it has to wait for all players to respond. The sacrifce, which is part of the activation cost, happens when you activate the ability, but the effect of the ability doesn't.
Let's go through it step by step:
Opponent plays a spell that gives target creature -2/-2 when it resolves (let's say Echoing Decay)
The Stack
TOP
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
Now you respond by activating the Ravager and sacrifce an artifact (this sacrifice happens immediately)
The Stack
TOP
Ravager's gain a +1/+1 counter ability
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
You want the counter to be on the Ravager, so you pass priority, and your opponent doesn respond either, so the top object resolves, meaning the Ravager gets its +1/+1 counter
The Stack
TOP
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
Now you actiavte te Ravager again, this time you sac it to itself (the Ravager is gone immediately). This triggers its modular ability.
The Stack
TOP
Ravager's modular ability targeting Memnite
Ravager's gain a +1/+1 counter ability
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
No player responds, so the top object resolves: Memnite gets two +1/+1 counters (there were 2 counters on the Ravager when you sacrificed it) and becomes a 3/3.
The Stack
TOP
Ravager's gain a +1/+1 counter ability
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
No player responds, so the top objects on the stack resolves. But Ravager is gone, so the ability does nothing.
The Stack
TOP
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
No player responds, so the top object on the stack resolves: Memnite gets -2/-2 an becomes a 1/1.
That is how the stack works, and has worked since its inception. When your opponent casts the spell, it sits on the stack, not really doing anything until it resolves. And it won't resolve until it's the top spell or ability on the stack, and all players pass priority without doing anything. The stack does not resolve: spell or abilities on the stack resolves, and they resolve one at a time, not all at once. So this interation is 100% legal:
Player A casts Infest. Stack looks like this:
Infest
Player B, when they get priority, activates the Ravager's ability. Stack looks like this:
Ravager activated ability
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's ability). After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Infest
When Player B gets priority again, they activate the Ravager's ability again. The stack looks like this:
Ravager activated ability
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's ability). After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Infest
When Player B gets priority again, they activate the Ravager's ability again, but this time, they sacrifice the Ravager itself. The stack looks like this:
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's triggered ability) and Memnite gets the coutners. After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Ravager activated ability
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's ability, but does nothing since Ravager is no longer in play). After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, Infest, which won't kill the now 4/4 Memnite due to the counters it just got). Now the stack is empty.
Alright it makes sense now, thanks to all. It seems the important mechanic here is that it takes both players passing priority in a row for the stack to resolve, but the stack will keep growing for as long as someone doesn't pass priority.
No, you seem to misunderstand the stack. Yes, you add things to the top, but only the topmost object ever resolves. So, the only way for Decay to resolve is if it is on top of the stack and both players pass priority in succession without doing anything. That never happens above before Memnite has 3 counters. When Decay gets back to the top of the stack, another object is added (Ravager's ability) so it doesn't resolve and then it is no longer the top of the stack.
In response, you sacrifice an Ornithopter to Ravager's ability, so it goes onto the stack.
Both players pass priority so the ability resolves.
Then so does the -2/-2 ability after that. You don't get a chance to sacrifice again. Which part of the stack suggests otherwise? It's still not apparent.
You keep assuming that the stack resolves in its entirety, which is why you are having trouble understanding what people are saying. The stack resolves one item at a time.
Opponent cast Disfigure targeting Memnite Disfigure is only effect on the stack, active player lets assume opponent gains priority but they pass. You activate the Arcbound Ravager sacrificing some other artifact you have on the field.
The stack is now Disfigure, Ravager ability. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass, Ravager's abiilty resolves putting a +1/+1 counter on it Disfigure is only effect on the stack, active player lets assume opponent gains priority but they pass. You activate the Arcbound Ravager sacrificing some other artifact you have on the field.
The stack is now Disfigure, Ravager ability. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass, Ravager's abiilty resolves putting a +1/+1 counter on it Disfigure is only effect on the stack, active player lets assume opponent gains priority but they pass. You activate the Arcbound Ravager sacrificing some other artifact you have on the field.
The stack is now Disfigure, Ravager ability. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass, Ravager's abiilty resolves putting a +1/+1 counter on it Disfigure is only effect on the stack, active player lets assume opponent gains priority but they pass. You activate the Arcbound Ravager sacrificing the ravager, this triggers its modular ability, you target Memnite with this.
The stack is now Disfigure, Ravager ability, Ravager's Modular ability. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass, Ravager's Modular ability resolves placing all of the +1/+1 counters on the Memnite.
The stack is now Disfigure, Ravager ability. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass, Ravager's abiilty resolves doing nothing because the Ravager is no longer there
The stack is now Disfigure. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass. Disfigure resolves giving your Memnite -2/-2, Memnite is now a 2/2, base 1/1 + 3(+1/+1 counters) and -2/-2.
[...] Disfigure is only effect on the stack, active player lets assume opponent gains priority but they pass. You activate the Arcbound Ravager sacrificing some other artifact you have on the field.
The stack is now Disfigure, Ravager ability. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass, Ravager's abiilty resolves putting a +1/+1 counter on it
[...]
Actually, it is the player who casts a spell or activates an ability that receives priority first afterwards. You don't get the chance to see if your opponent responds before deciding on that yourself. You always have first oportunity to respond to your own stuff.
Posting the relevant rules to support what various people have been saying:
405.5. When all players pass in succession, the top (last-added) spell or ability on the stack resolves. If the stack is empty when all players pass, the current step or phase ends and the next begins.
116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
Only one object on the stack resolves at a time, and then players get priority and can take more actions. The sequence that has been described above relies on this being the case, but it works because of this.
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Okay, I still don't see why though. The cost of the sacrifice happens instantly because it's a cost, but when the counters are placed is where it's unclear. If we looked at the stack, it would show that arcbound ravager is the last thing on the stack, which means it happens first when the stack resolves. But if that's actually true, the other 3 counters couldn't have been placed on arcbound ravager in time because it would already have sacrificed itself first. Whether the sacrifice is instant or on the stack, it doesn't seem like the counters can be placed on ravager in time.
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
So you can sacrifice an artifact to the Ravager in response to the -2/-2 spell, let that activation resolve (which puts a +1/+1 counter on the Ravager), then still in response to your opponent's spell, you sacrifice the Ravager to itself (that ability will do nothing when it resolves because the Ravager is gone), which triggers the modular ability. That ability will go on top of the stack above the Ravager's activated ability (the one that will do nothing), which is above your opponent's spell. Assuming no player does anything else to interrupt the following chain, the modular ability will put +1/+1 counters on the Memnite (as many as there were on the Ravager, so at least 2) making it a 3/3 or bigger, the activated ability resolves and does nothing, then your opponent's spell finally resolves maiking your Memnite a 1/1 again.
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I'm still not seeing how that makes sense, because the counters can't be placed on arcbound ravager if it's already sacrificed, and therefore can't modulate them to something else. You still didn't clear up at what speed the sacrifice happens, I'm just guessing, so until someone addresses that this topic can't begin to be resolved. It seems like either way, the sacrifice will resolve first, before counters can be placed on ravager, meaning it can't modulate them in time. If I let one counter-placement ability resolve, that means I've already passed priority and so has my opponent which means all abilities start resolving, which means I can only place one counter on memnite at most from ravager's first-priority or instant-cost sacrifice.
The sacrifice happens during the process of activating the ability, when you pay its costs, as it is a cost to activate said ability. Which means for most purposes, immediately when you decide to activate the ability ("immediately" in the sense, that the opponent doesn't get a chance to interrupt it or respond to it). That doesn't mean that all sacrifces happen immediately, though, it can also happen as part of resolving a spell/ability, if that spell's/ability's effect instructs such an action. So, if it is a cost (like in the example of the Ravager), you sacrifice as a cost. If it is an effect, you sacrifice as the effect during the resolution.
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"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
In response, you place a 1/1 counter on Arcbound
It resolves. At this point, both players must again pass priority for the -2/-2 to resolve, but
In this priority, you place a 1/1 counter on Arcbound.
It resolves. Arcbound is now a 0/0 with (at least) 3 counters on it.
Both players must again pass priority for the -2/-2 to resolve, but
In this priority, you sacrifice Arcbound and put the counters on Memnite.
It resolves. Memnite now has enough toughness to survive the -2/-2, so you let the -2/-2 trigger resolve.
Okay, so ravager resolves instantly without anyone getting a chance to respond to it because it's a cost of doing something else. That means counters can't be placed on it soon enough. The sacrifice happens instantly, but the placing counters doesn't, so ravager sacs itself, but then the counters have no target and will not get modulated, only the 1 counter that ravager started with will be modulated, and memnite will die. This means the only way to win would be to have anticipated the -2/-2 first.
Memnite is targeted with Echoing Decay
In response, you sacrifice an Ornithopter to Ravager's ability, so it goes onto the stack.
Both players pass priority so the ability resolves. Ravager now has 2 counters on it.
You decide to sacrifice another Thopter to Ravager. So, the ability goes onto the stack.
Both players pass priority, so the ability resolves and now Ravager has 3 counters on it.
You then sacrifice Ravager to itself. Its ability goes onto the stack.
On top of that, its trigger goes onto the stack. You target Memnite with the trigger.
Both players pass priority so the trigger resolves. Memnite now has 3 counters on it.
Both players pass priority again so the activated ability resolves but does nothing since Ravager is gone.
Both players pass priority again without doing anything so Echoing Decay resolves.
Memnite is now a 2/2 (1/1 + 3 +1/+1 counters - -2/-2 from Decay).
The important part is that Decay won't resolve until both players pass priority without doing anything and you don't. You keep activating Ravager's ability so it will go on top of (and resolve before) Decay.
Your opponent casts their spell targeting Memnite.
You respond by activating the Ravager's ability, sacrificing a random artifact.
That ability resolves, and the Ravager gets a +1/+1 counter (now it has two +1/+1 counters on it).
Still in response to the opponent's spell, you activate the Ravager's ability again, sacrificing another random artifact.
That ability resolves, and the Ravager gets a +1/+1 counter (now it has three +1/+1 counters on it).
Still in response to the opponent's spell, you activate the Ravager's ability again, sacrificing the Ravager itself.
That causes the dies ability to trigger, and when it resolves, since the Ravager had three +1/+1 counters on it when it died, you get to put three +1/+1 counters on the Memnite (the Ravager's ability still resolves, but does nothing since the Ravager is no longer on the battlefield).
Then your opponent's spell finally resolves, and Memnite lives and ends up as a 2/2 for the turn.
The key point is that you are letting the Ravager's activated abilities resolve, then sacrificing the Ravager itself. You're not activating the ability multiple times then sacrificing the Ravager, you're activating it, letting those abilities resolve and giving the Ravager the counters, then you're sacrificing the Ravager.
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
Then so does the -2/-2 ability after that. You don't get a chance to sacrifice again. Which part of the stack suggests otherwise? It's still not apparent.
So somehow during the entier time, the -2/-2 spell is in limbo, and you can just arbitrarily activate your abilities at infinite speed compared to decay because they were cast at a later time? It seems like the only important mechanic here is the priority passing because it takes both players mutually agree to pass priority for the last thing on the stack to resolve. Once priority passes back to the controller of arcbound, then don't have to let the stack resolve, they can do this weird time displacement thing where another ability that was activated later can happen first, and only after they finally say "okay, I'm done doing things when I have priority" everything resolves with the counters on memnite.
You mean...bottom of the stack right? Because if not, then we're all the way back to the beginning. I've never heard of anyone stacking things downward into the ground, I've only ever seen things get stacked upwards, so when spells go on the stack, the most recently played spell or ability goes on top and thus resolves first.
Player A casts Infest. Stack looks like this:
Infest
Player B, when they get priority, activates the Ravager's ability. Stack looks like this:
Ravager activated ability
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's ability). After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Infest
When Player B gets priority again, they activate the Ravager's ability again. The stack looks like this:
Ravager activated ability
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's ability). After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Infest
When Player B gets priority again, they activate the Ravager's ability again, but this time, they sacrifice the Ravager itself. The stack looks like this:
Ravager triggered ability (targeting Memnite)
Ravager activated ability
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's triggered ability) and Memnite gets the coutners. After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Ravager activated ability
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, the Ravager's ability, but does nothing since Ravager is no longer in play). After that ability resolves, the stack looks like this:
Infest
Both players pass, and only the top spell or ability on the stack resolves (in this case, Infest, which won't kill the now 4/4 Memnite due to the counters it just got). Now the stack is empty.
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
No, the Ravager's ability doesn't resolve instantly. Like all non mana abilities it goes onto the stack, where it has to wait for all players to respond. The sacrifce, which is part of the activation cost, happens when you activate the ability, but the effect of the ability doesn't.
Let's go through it step by step:
Opponent plays a spell that gives target creature -2/-2 when it resolves (let's say Echoing Decay)
The Stack
TOP
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
Now you respond by activating the Ravager and sacrifce an artifact (this sacrifice happens immediately)
The Stack
TOP
Ravager's gain a +1/+1 counter ability
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
You want the counter to be on the Ravager, so you pass priority, and your opponent doesn respond either, so the top object resolves, meaning the Ravager gets its +1/+1 counter
The Stack
TOP
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
Now you actiavte te Ravager again, this time you sac it to itself (the Ravager is gone immediately). This triggers its modular ability.
The Stack
TOP
Ravager's modular ability targeting Memnite
Ravager's gain a +1/+1 counter ability
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
No player responds, so the top object resolves: Memnite gets two +1/+1 counters (there were 2 counters on the Ravager when you sacrificed it) and becomes a 3/3.
The Stack
TOP
Ravager's gain a +1/+1 counter ability
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
No player responds, so the top objects on the stack resolves. But Ravager is gone, so the ability does nothing.
The Stack
TOP
Echoing Decay targeting Memnite
BOTTOM
No player responds, so the top object on the stack resolves: Memnite gets -2/-2 an becomes a 1/1.
The Stack
TOP
BOTTOM
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Alright it makes sense now, thanks to all. It seems the important mechanic here is that it takes both players passing priority in a row for the stack to resolve, but the stack will keep growing for as long as someone doesn't pass priority.
Opponent cast Disfigure targeting Memnite
Disfigure is only effect on the stack, active player lets assume opponent gains priority but they pass. You activate the Arcbound Ravager sacrificing some other artifact you have on the field.
The stack is now Disfigure, Ravager ability. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass, Ravager's abiilty resolves putting a +1/+1 counter on it
Disfigure is only effect on the stack, active player lets assume opponent gains priority but they pass. You activate the Arcbound Ravager sacrificing some other artifact you have on the field.
The stack is now Disfigure, Ravager ability. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass, Ravager's abiilty resolves putting a +1/+1 counter on it
Disfigure is only effect on the stack, active player lets assume opponent gains priority but they pass. You activate the Arcbound Ravager sacrificing some other artifact you have on the field.
The stack is now Disfigure, Ravager ability. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass, Ravager's abiilty resolves putting a +1/+1 counter on it
Disfigure is only effect on the stack, active player lets assume opponent gains priority but they pass. You activate the Arcbound Ravager sacrificing the ravager, this triggers its modular ability, you target Memnite with this.
The stack is now Disfigure, Ravager ability, Ravager's Modular ability. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass, Ravager's Modular ability resolves placing all of the +1/+1 counters on the Memnite.
The stack is now Disfigure, Ravager ability. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass, Ravager's abiilty resolves doing nothing because the Ravager is no longer there
The stack is now Disfigure. Opponent receives priority and passes, you also pass. Disfigure resolves giving your Memnite -2/-2, Memnite is now a 2/2, base 1/1 + 3(+1/+1 counters) and -2/-2.
Actually, it is the player who casts a spell or activates an ability that receives priority first afterwards. You don't get the chance to see if your opponent responds before deciding on that yourself. You always have first oportunity to respond to your own stuff.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Only one object on the stack resolves at a time, and then players get priority and can take more actions. The sequence that has been described above relies on this being the case, but it works because of this.