My wife and I were playing this morning at breakfast and this was the scenario:
I had a table full of guys and an island and Library of Alexandria untapped and she had nothing besides a bunch of lands (including Rishadan Port).
She activates port to tap my Island, so I float U from it.
She then asks "Does that go away?"
Because she didn't specify when and didn't mention going into combat or her next main phase, I said "no".
She casts Wrath of God and I Memory Lapse it with the floating U and my library.
She scoffs and gets mad and says I cheated her.
At worst, I was being a dick by not answering her with a more thorough answer to her question. The way I see it is that because she didn't specifically ask when my floating U would "go away", I was under no obligation to tell her the rules of Magic nor to give her strategic advice or to hint at what she needed to do (e.g. had I said "mana pools empty at the end of each phase", it would have given her a clue as to what to do) only to answer her poorly worded question with a vague, yet not technically incorrect answer.
I admit, what I did was exploitative in that I was exploiting her 1) ignorance of the rules and 2) vague wording. I would 100% have done this in a tournament as well.
So...can some rules gurus please tell me how this exact situation would have panned out in a tournament? And for her sake, can you guys also tell me how much of a dick move that was to do at the kitchen table? I admit...I'm super competitive, but my wife has no mercy for me, so I must crush her with all my might.
Communication is key, in both casual and competitive play. She should have been more detailed in her question, but you should also have been more forthcoming with your answer. Kitchen Table play I would say you didn't break any rules, but that won't stop you from sleeping on the couch tonight. In the future I would be more detailed in asking and answering questions. If this was FNM I would explain when mana leaves the pool and passing priority of stuff.
She then asks "Does that go away?"
Because she didn't specify when and didn't mention going into combat or her next main phase, I said "no".
Because she didn't specify, you technically lied, as well. That mana does go away (next step or phase), which means your answer was just as wrong as it was correct - in fact, more so because you said it with intent to conceal or deceive. I don't know how this would go over in a tournament, but I know if someone pulled that crap to trick less experienced players in my group, they would lose a lot of credibility and probably be targeted (advantage of multi-player - keeps people honest). Even in a duel, I'd stay honest, and after the game, I would explain that they should activate it during upkeep or prior to passing through a phase/step just to prevent such shenanigans. Seriously, it's pretty petty to try to trick a less experienced player just to win one game. then again, I prefer to lose a well-played game than to win because the other player doesn't know the rules.
Communication is key, in both casual and competitive play. She should have been more detailed in her question, but you should also have been more forthcoming with your answer. Kitchen Table play I would say you didn't break any rules, but that won't stop you from sleeping on the couch tonight. In the future I would be more detailed in asking and answering questions. If this was FNM I would explain when mana leaves the pool and passing priority of stuff.
The devil's advocate in me loves hearing and reading about these scenarios so I feel compelled to share my personal insights, opinions, and interpretation...
While it's courteous and good sportsmanship to do so voluntarily, it technically isn't and shouldn't be your responsibility to remind opponents (at fnm and other levels of sanctioned play) when mana leaves pools as timing restrictions are among the earliest and arguably more important rules one learns (or is supposed to learn) when they first start playing.
For reference this is included in the rules about mana itself:
106.4. When an effect produces mana, that mana goes into a player’s mana pool. From there, it can be used to pay costs immediately, or it can stay in the player’s mana pool. Each player’s mana pool empties at the end of each step and phase.
...and is repeated again for thoroughness in the rules pertaining to turn structure:
500.4. When a step or phase ends, any unused mana left in a player’s mana pool empties. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.
Suffice it to say that players should know this or know to ask/confirm if and when you're advancing to the next phase/step during a turn after any player has floated mana and there's a lingering sense of ambiguity since mana floating usually implies the controller has one or more plays pending prior to the phase/step advancement.
500.2. A phase or step in which players receive priority ends when the stack is empty and all players pass in succession. Simply having the stack become empty doesn’t cause such a phase or step to end; all players have to pass in succession with the stack empty. Because of this, each player gets a chance to add new things to the stack before that phase or step ends.
Some could argue that the very nature of her question indicated that she was passing priority in her desire to have your mana "go away" after which you failed to acknowledge that you were doing the same by answering her question with intentional vaguery (essentially a tactical delay of game which works to your advantage).
However (this is directed at the OP), this was at the kitchen table with family where your poor communication earns a symbolic poor sportsmanship warning in my opinion.
Furthermore, in your wife's defense, if she (or both of you) started playing way back when mana burn was still a thing (which I assume was the case based on you having a library to play with casually), only play at the kitchen table (or stopped playing for a long time while the rules for mana changes), it's reasonable to assume that she may not fully understand the adjustment (seeing as how she wasn't oblivious to the emptying of mana pools), which is a husband's responsibility to explain and clarify which you failed to do. Does it make you a malicious or cheating player looking to exploit an opponent's ignorance? Not technically though I suppose that's a matter of perspective albeit no more up for debate than whether or not you're a nice husband.
All that aside, you were exploiting by your own admission. You knew she had nothing but land in play and presumably couldn't/wouldn't attack, then you were asked asked about your mana leaving the pool (indicating or at the very least suggesting her intent to pass priority and advance to the next phase), therefore you should reasonably assume it was her intent to cast that *** during her second main phase after short-cutting to skip over the combat phase at which point you no longer had that mana floating.
For more information regarding tournament setting, the Rules on Player Communication (Section 4.1) can be found here.
More specifically, here's the relevant paragraph is about "free information":
Free information is information to which all players are entitled access without contamination or omissions made by their opponents. If a player is ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, he or she should call a judge and explain the situation. Free information includes:
Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state.
The name of any visible object
The type of any counter in a public zone.
The physical status (tapped/flipped/unattached/phased) and current zone of any object.
Player life totals, poison counter totals, and the game score of the current match. The current step and/or phase and which player(s) are active.
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
From what I gather, I was deceptive and exploitative while not technically breaking any rules. But, because it was kitchen table with my wife, I should have let it slide...but didn't because its kill or be killed at the 6jerfz family table and I didn't come to lose. \m/
For some context: we once were tied, 3-0, in the final round of FNM playing against each other. If we drew the game, we'd have gotten X prize packs. If we played it out and one of us won and one lost, we would get X - Y packs (essentially a few less packs). Rather than draw the game so we'd go home with more to show, wifey decided to play. Like I said....we're a bit cutthroat with each other!
To the question "does that go away?" the answer "no" is pattently false. The question is not vague unless you want to argue about what "that" may refer to. What the question is, is broad. There is not a spesific timeframe that the question refers to. You should not be allowed to invent those spesifics to change the answer into a question that was not asked.
She then asks "Does that go away?"
Because she didn't specify when and didn't mention going into combat or her next main phase, I said "no".
That isn't a technically correct answer. It's not correct at all.
Saying "No." means that the mana never goes away - which is obviously incorrect.
In a tournament (at Competitive REL) you're not required to answer a question pertaining to Derived information (which this is), but if you do answer it must be truthful.
Since you weren't, I'd give you a TE-Communication Policy Violation which comes with a warning and potentially a backup.
At FNM (Regular REL) you are required to answer questions about Derived information and you must be truthful. I'd explain the correct answer and then likely back up to before the Wrath was cast.
UPDATE: I didn't sleep on the couch and, in fact, we had a really good night and even played more magic.
"It doesn't go away within the phase unless I use it", was how I would frame my answer in an actual tournament. Since she didn't specify the timeframe, I "assumed" she meant "does it go away right now".
It boils down to both people being too vague--one due to ignorance and the other exploiting the other's ambiguity. I wholly accept that in the lowest REL, a judge would back us up.
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I had a table full of guys and an island and Library of Alexandria untapped and she had nothing besides a bunch of lands (including Rishadan Port).
She activates port to tap my Island, so I float U from it.
She then asks "Does that go away?"
Because she didn't specify when and didn't mention going into combat or her next main phase, I said "no".
She casts Wrath of God and I Memory Lapse it with the floating U and my library.
She scoffs and gets mad and says I cheated her.
At worst, I was being a dick by not answering her with a more thorough answer to her question. The way I see it is that because she didn't specifically ask when my floating U would "go away", I was under no obligation to tell her the rules of Magic nor to give her strategic advice or to hint at what she needed to do (e.g. had I said "mana pools empty at the end of each phase", it would have given her a clue as to what to do) only to answer her poorly worded question with a vague, yet not technically incorrect answer.
I admit, what I did was exploitative in that I was exploiting her 1) ignorance of the rules and 2) vague wording. I would 100% have done this in a tournament as well.
So...can some rules gurus please tell me how this exact situation would have panned out in a tournament? And for her sake, can you guys also tell me how much of a dick move that was to do at the kitchen table? I admit...I'm super competitive, but my wife has no mercy for me, so I must crush her with all my might.
And in marriage.
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The devil's advocate in me loves hearing and reading about these scenarios so I feel compelled to share my personal insights, opinions, and interpretation...
While it's courteous and good sportsmanship to do so voluntarily, it technically isn't and shouldn't be your responsibility to remind opponents (at fnm and other levels of sanctioned play) when mana leaves pools as timing restrictions are among the earliest and arguably more important rules one learns (or is supposed to learn) when they first start playing.
For reference this is included in the rules about mana itself:
106.4. When an effect produces mana, that mana goes into a player’s mana pool. From there, it can be used to pay costs immediately, or it can stay in the player’s mana pool. Each player’s mana pool empties at the end of each step and phase.
...and is repeated again for thoroughness in the rules pertaining to turn structure:
500.4. When a step or phase ends, any unused mana left in a player’s mana pool empties. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.
Suffice it to say that players should know this or know to ask/confirm if and when you're advancing to the next phase/step during a turn after any player has floated mana and there's a lingering sense of ambiguity since mana floating usually implies the controller has one or more plays pending prior to the phase/step advancement.
500.2. A phase or step in which players receive priority ends when the stack is empty and all players pass in succession. Simply having the stack become empty doesn’t cause such a phase or step to end; all players have to pass in succession with the stack empty. Because of this, each player gets a chance to add new things to the stack before that phase or step ends.
Some could argue that the very nature of her question indicated that she was passing priority in her desire to have your mana "go away" after which you failed to acknowledge that you were doing the same by answering her question with intentional vaguery (essentially a tactical delay of game which works to your advantage).
However (this is directed at the OP), this was at the kitchen table with family where your poor communication earns a symbolic poor sportsmanship warning in my opinion.
Furthermore, in your wife's defense, if she (or both of you) started playing way back when mana burn was still a thing (which I assume was the case based on you having a library to play with casually), only play at the kitchen table (or stopped playing for a long time while the rules for mana changes), it's reasonable to assume that she may not fully understand the adjustment (seeing as how she wasn't oblivious to the emptying of mana pools), which is a husband's responsibility to explain and clarify which you failed to do. Does it make you a malicious or cheating player looking to exploit an opponent's ignorance? Not technically though I suppose that's a matter of perspective albeit no more up for debate than whether or not you're a nice husband.
All that aside, you were exploiting by your own admission. You knew she had nothing but land in play and presumably couldn't/wouldn't attack, then you were asked asked about your mana leaving the pool (indicating or at the very least suggesting her intent to pass priority and advance to the next phase), therefore you should reasonably assume it was her intent to cast that *** during her second main phase after short-cutting to skip over the combat phase at which point you no longer had that mana floating.
For more information regarding tournament setting, the Rules on Player Communication (Section 4.1) can be found here.
More specifically, here's the relevant paragraph is about "free information":
Free information is information to which all players are entitled access without contamination or omissions made by their opponents. If a player is ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, he or she should call a judge and explain the situation. Free information includes:
Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state.
The name of any visible object
The type of any counter in a public zone.
The physical status (tapped/flipped/unattached/phased) and current zone of any object.
Player life totals, poison counter totals, and the game score of the current match.
The current step and/or phase and which player(s) are active.
Bottom line: I hope your couch is comfortable
From what I gather, I was deceptive and exploitative while not technically breaking any rules. But, because it was kitchen table with my wife, I should have let it slide...but didn't because its kill or be killed at the 6jerfz family table and I didn't come to lose. \m/
For some context: we once were tied, 3-0, in the final round of FNM playing against each other. If we drew the game, we'd have gotten X prize packs. If we played it out and one of us won and one lost, we would get X - Y packs (essentially a few less packs). Rather than draw the game so we'd go home with more to show, wifey decided to play. Like I said....we're a bit cutthroat with each other!
That isn't a technically correct answer. It's not correct at all.
Saying "No." means that the mana never goes away - which is obviously incorrect.
In a tournament (at Competitive REL) you're not required to answer a question pertaining to Derived information (which this is), but if you do answer it must be truthful.
Since you weren't, I'd give you a TE-Communication Policy Violation which comes with a warning and potentially a backup.
At FNM (Regular REL) you are required to answer questions about Derived information and you must be truthful. I'd explain the correct answer and then likely back up to before the Wrath was cast.
"It doesn't go away within the phase unless I use it", was how I would frame my answer in an actual tournament. Since she didn't specify the timeframe, I "assumed" she meant "does it go away right now".
It boils down to both people being too vague--one due to ignorance and the other exploiting the other's ambiguity. I wholly accept that in the lowest REL, a judge would back us up.