How often is the Power and Toughness checked on Grim Strider? Here is an example of what occurred today.
Setup
Player One has one card in his hand
Player One has Grim Strider able to attack
Combat Phase starts
2 empty priorities
Player One declares his Grim Strider as attacking Player Two
2 empty priorities
Player Two declares a 5/6 creature as blocking Grim Strider
Player One responds by casting spell from hand (making his hand empty)
2 empty priorities
What happens next?
Scenario 1 Grim Strider does 5 damage to the 5/6 creature, the 5/6 creature does 5 damage to Grim Strider
P/T check on Grim Strider
State based lethality test: 5/6 dies, Grim Strider lives with 1hp left
Scenario 2
P/T check on Grim Strider Grim Strider does 6 damage to 5/6 creature, the 5/6 creature does 5 damage to Grim Strider
State based lethality test: 5/6 dies, Grim Strider lives with 1hp left
Scenario 3 Grim Strider does 5 damage to the 5/6 creature, the 5/6 creature does 5 damage to Grim Strider
State based lethality test: 5/6 dies, Grim Strider dies
*I don't believe it's called a P/T check, just am not sure what it IS called.
**EDIT** Changed 'initiatives' to 'priorities' to match formal verbage
There is no such thing as a "P/T check" here. Continuous effects of an object's static ability, like Grim Strider's, work "at all times" the object is in the appropriate zone (C.R. 611.3, especially C.R. 611.3b; C.R. 113.6, 604.1, 604.3). That means Grim Strider will be a 6/6 creature as soon as Player One (its controller) has no cards in hand (C.R. 613.1, especially 613.1g; C.R. 613.4c, 613.5, 109.5). In scenario 2, as Grim Strider assigns combat damage, it will be 6/6, so it will assign 6 combat damage since its power is 6.
There is also no such thing as "HP" in Magic, and damage marked on a creature doesn't reduce a creature's toughness (under C.R. 302.4b, toughness is "the amount of damage needed to destroy" a creature; if marked damage reduced toughness, it would also reduce "the amount of damage needed to destroy" that creature, which could lead to an unintuitive result). Once scenario 2 ends, Grim Strider will remain 6/6 with 5 damage marked on it.
EDIT (Jun. 6): Added and corrected some rule citations.
EDIT (Sep. 11): Edited to conform to edited comment 1 and to make corrections.
EDIT (Sep. 1, 2022): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT (Dec. 3, 2023): Edit rule citation.
Grim Strider's ability is a static ability. It is applied constantly, there is no "check", its p/t can even fluctuate during the resolution of a spell or ability. However, whether it should die for having toughness 0 or less, or whether it should be destroyed for having damage marked on it that equals or exceeds its toughness, is checked only as a state-based action, which doesn't happen during the resolution of a spell or ability, but still immediately after, before players can cast or activate anything new.
So here, scenario 2 is what happens if player 1 gets rid of his last card in hand before the combat damage step, which they can do when they get priority (what you call initiative), after blockers have been declared. The Strider is immediately 6/6, that's what used during the combat damage step.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
Sorry for my delay. Thanks all for your responses. I figured it happened immediately at the spell resolution, just wanted to make sure.
Part of my own confusion was a thread somewhere in which Tarmogoyf could have been dealt lethal damage by an instant spell, but that instant card being placed in the graveyard saved it.
Sorry for my delay. Thanks all for your responses. I figured it happened immediately at the spell resolution, just wanted to make sure.
Part of my own confusion was a thread somewhere in which Tarmogoyf could have been dealt lethal damage by an instant spell, but that instant card being placed in the graveyard saved it.
Thanks again.
If an instant spell that's a card deals damage to Tarmogoyf as it resolves (C.R. 608.2c) and then goes to its owner's graveyard (C.R. 608.2m) and if there were no other instant cards in all graveyards, then Tarmogoyf's power and toughness will be increased (C.R. 611.3b, 613.1, 613.1g, 613.4, 613.4a, 613.5, 604.1, 604.2). Then the active player would get priority (C.R. 117.3b), but first, state-based actions are checked (C.R. 117.5), and Tarmogoyf is checked whether the damage marked on it equals or exceeds its current toughness, which takes into account the instant card just put into the graveyard.
This phenomenon has to do with the fact that state-based actions, such as the one that destroys creatures for having lethal damage (C.R. 704.5g), are checked only at discrete moments of the game (C.R. 704.3, 704.4), as opposed to continuous effects like that of Tarmogoyf's static ability (C.R. 611.3, 611.3b, 604.1).
Setup
Player One has one card in his hand
Player One has Grim Strider able to attack
Combat Phase starts
2 empty priorities
Player One declares his Grim Strider as attacking Player Two
2 empty priorities
Player Two declares a 5/6 creature as blocking Grim Strider
Player One responds by casting spell from hand (making his hand empty)
2 empty priorities
What happens next?
Scenario 1
Grim Strider does 5 damage to the 5/6 creature, the 5/6 creature does 5 damage to Grim Strider
P/T check on Grim Strider
State based lethality test: 5/6 dies, Grim Strider lives with 1hp left
Scenario 2
P/T check on Grim Strider
Grim Strider does 6 damage to 5/6 creature, the 5/6 creature does 5 damage to Grim Strider
State based lethality test: 5/6 dies, Grim Strider lives with 1hp left
Scenario 3
Grim Strider does 5 damage to the 5/6 creature, the 5/6 creature does 5 damage to Grim Strider
State based lethality test: 5/6 dies, Grim Strider dies
*I don't believe it's called a P/T check, just am not sure what it IS called.
**EDIT** Changed 'initiatives' to 'priorities' to match formal verbage
There is no such thing as a "P/T check" here. Continuous effects of an object's static ability, like Grim Strider's, work "at all times" the object is in the appropriate zone (C.R. 611.3, especially C.R. 611.3b; C.R. 113.6, 604.1, 604.3). That means Grim Strider will be a 6/6 creature as soon as Player One (its controller) has no cards in hand (C.R. 613.1, especially 613.1g; C.R. 613.4c, 613.5, 109.5). In scenario 2, as Grim Strider assigns combat damage, it will be 6/6, so it will assign 6 combat damage since its power is 6.
There is also no such thing as "HP" in Magic, and damage marked on a creature doesn't reduce a creature's toughness (under C.R. 302.4b, toughness is "the amount of damage needed to destroy" a creature; if marked damage reduced toughness, it would also reduce "the amount of damage needed to destroy" that creature, which could lead to an unintuitive result). Once scenario 2 ends, Grim Strider will remain 6/6 with 5 damage marked on it.
EDIT (Jun. 6): Added and corrected some rule citations.
EDIT (Sep. 11): Edited to conform to edited comment 1 and to make corrections.
EDIT (Sep. 1, 2022): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT (Dec. 3, 2023): Edit rule citation.
So here, scenario 2 is what happens if player 1 gets rid of his last card in hand before the combat damage step, which they can do when they get priority (what you call initiative), after blockers have been declared. The Strider is immediately 6/6, that's what used during the combat damage step.
Part of my own confusion was a thread somewhere in which Tarmogoyf could have been dealt lethal damage by an instant spell, but that instant card being placed in the graveyard saved it.
Thanks again.
This phenomenon has to do with the fact that state-based actions, such as the one that destroys creatures for having lethal damage (C.R. 704.5g), are checked only at discrete moments of the game (C.R. 704.3, 704.4), as opposed to continuous effects like that of Tarmogoyf's static ability (C.R. 611.3, 611.3b, 604.1).
EDIT (Jun. 6): Added rule citations.
EDIT (Aug. 31, 2022; Sep. 1, 2022): Edited generally.