People are saying that this can be used to return cards that were discarded into exile via Madness, but I am not so sure. If a Madness card is discarded into exile and put from exile into the graveyard (whether it was cast or not), won't that instance of the card only see it as being put from exile into the graveyard?
No, that doesn't work. The card that ends up in the graveyard is not the one that was discarded as far as the game is concerned. The discarded card was the one in exile, and even though the card in the graveyard is represented by the same piece of cardboard, it is a different object, that was never dicarded.
Shadow of the Grave returns only cycled or discarded cards from the graveyard to the battlefield.
Under current rules, if a discarded card is exiled instead due to madness (C.R. 702.34a), then moved from exile to the graveyard (whether by the madness ability [C.R. 702.34a] or otherwise), that card won't count as discarded anymore because in general, a card that moves from one zone to another becomes a different object in the new zone from the object in the previous zone (C.R. 400.7), and moving a card from exile to the graveyard doesn't count as discarding that card (C.R. 701.8a).
EDIT (Apr. 16): Clarified nature of answer.
EDIT (May 4): See comment 13.
Madness is an optional discard to exile though, right? Say I want to just discard it to the graveyard (and thus won't be able to activate its Madness cost) so that Shadow of the Grave can return it.
No, that doesn't work. The card that ends up in the graveyard is not the one that was discarded as far as the game is concerned. The discarded card was the one in exile, and even though the card in the graveyard is represented by the same piece of cardboard, it is a different object, that was never dicarded.
Actually the release notes for Shadow of the Grave state that it will return any Madness cards that were discarded, provided they were not cast.
No, that doesn't work. The card that ends up in the graveyard is not the one that was discarded as far as the game is concerned. The discarded card was the one in exile, and even though the card in the graveyard is represented by the same piece of cardboard, it is a different object, that was never dicarded.
Actually the release notes for Shadow of the Grave state that it will return any Madness cards that were discarded, provided they were not cast.
But if a card was discarded to exile by non-Madness means and moved into the graveyard it would not count, correct? They are planning to make Madness a special case?
Actually the release notes for Shadow of the Grave state that it will return any Madness cards that were discarded, provided they were not cast.
But if a card was discarded to exile by non-Madness means and moved into the graveyard it would not count, correct? They are planning to make Madness a special case?
Good question, all the specific release notes say is that it will return to your hand all cards that you discarded for any reason, and that if you discard a Madness card and don't cast it, Shadow of the Grave can find it in your graveyard (but not if you cast it).
Before I read that I would have said Madness cards wouldn't return because they changed zones and wouldn't be tracked across that zone change, but having read that it looks like the determinting factor is just whether or not a card in your graveyard got there by being discarded; Madness cards that don't get cast arguably fit that criteria.
If you asked me to guess, I would say a card discarded into exile and then moved to the graveyard via a later effect (by being processed perhaps) wouldn't be returned because the action that put it into the graveyard was not discarding it, so yeah, Madness is probably just a special case.
If I were to discard a Manamorphose and then return it with Shadow of the Grave, then cast the same Manamorphose, could I then return it again with another Shadow of the Grave or is it seen as a different instances of that card? If It doesn't count could someone point me to the ruling or applicable rule to help me understand it a little better.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
U/B Tezzeret Control
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
No. Whenever an object changes zones, it becomes a brand new object. so the Manamorphose card on the stack is already a different thing than the discarded card that was in your graveyard. When the physical card is put back into your graveyard after it resolved, it becomes yet another object.
400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or
relation to, its previous existence. There are eight exceptions to this rule:
(None of those exceptions apply for the Manamorphose scenario. And neither do they apply to the OP's scenario, but the releae notes say otherwise. Hence the confusion above. We're still waiting for the newest rules update or an official statement on the matter.)
400.7a Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics
of a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes.
400.7b Prevention effects that apply to damage from a permanent spell on the stack continue to
apply to damage from the permanent that spell becomes.
400.7c If an ability of a permanent requires information about choices made as that permanent was
cast as a spell, including what mana was spent to cast that spell, it uses information about the
spell that became that permanent as it resolved.
400.7d Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, “When
Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield”) can find the new object that it became in
the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone.
400.7e Abilities of Auras that trigger when the enchanted permanent leaves the battlefield can find
the new object that Aura became in its owner’s graveyard if it was put into that graveyard at the
same time the enchanted permanent left the battlefield. It can also find the new object that Aura
became in its owner’s graveyard as a result of being put there as a state-based action for not
being attached to a permanent. (See rule 704.5n.)
400.7f If an effect grants a nonland card an ability that allows it to be cast, that ability will continue
to apply to the new object that card became after it moved to the stack as a result of being cast
this way.
400.7g If an effect allows a nonland card to be cast, other parts of that effect can find the new object
that card becomes after it moves to the stack as a result of being cast this way.
400.7h If an effect causes an object to move to a public zone, other parts of that effect can find that
object. If the cost of a spell or ability causes an object to move to a public zone, that spell or
ability’s effects can find that object.
In the newest version of the CR, they addecd these rules, which cover the ruling about Shadow of the Grave.
702.34c After resolving a madness triggered ability, if the exiled card wasn’t cast and was moved to
a public zone, effects referencing the discarded card can find that card. See rule 400.7i.
400.7i After resolving a madness triggered ability (see rule 702.34), if the exiled card wasn’t cast
and was moved to a public zone, effects referencing the discarded card can find that object.
People are saying that this can be used to return cards that were discarded into exile via Madness, but I am not so sure. If a Madness card is discarded into exile and put from exile into the graveyard (whether it was cast or not), won't that instance of the card only see it as being put from exile into the graveyard?
Similar to Flickering a creature put into play with Through the Breach won't be sacrificed at the End Step.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Under current rules, if a discarded card is exiled instead due to madness (C.R. 702.34a), then moved from exile to the graveyard (whether by the madness ability [C.R. 702.34a] or otherwise), that card won't count as discarded anymore because in general, a card that moves from one zone to another becomes a different object in the new zone from the object in the previous zone (C.R. 400.7), and moving a card from exile to the graveyard doesn't count as discarding that card (C.R. 701.8a).EDIT (Apr. 16): Clarified nature of answer.
EDIT (May 4): See comment 13.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
But if a card was discarded to exile by non-Madness means and moved into the graveyard it would not count, correct? They are planning to make Madness a special case?
Before I read that I would have said Madness cards wouldn't return because they changed zones and wouldn't be tracked across that zone change, but having read that it looks like the determinting factor is just whether or not a card in your graveyard got there by being discarded; Madness cards that don't get cast arguably fit that criteria.
If you asked me to guess, I would say a card discarded into exile and then moved to the graveyard via a later effect (by being processed perhaps) wouldn't be returned because the action that put it into the graveyard was not discarding it, so yeah, Madness is probably just a special case.
Sultai Midrange
Anything Innovative
(None of those exceptions apply for the Manamorphose scenario. And neither do they apply to the OP's scenario, but the releae notes say otherwise. Hence the confusion above. We're still waiting for the newest rules update or an official statement on the matter.)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)