Just wanting to confirm here; if I cast Ruinous Path for its Awaken cost, targeting one of my lands to receive counters, it will not get an additional counter from the Winding Constrictor.
702.112a Awaken appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two abilities: a static ability
that functions while the spell with awaken is on the stack and a spell ability. “Awaken N—
[cost]” means “You may pay [cost] rather than pay this spell’s mana cost as you cast this spell”
and “If this spell’s awaken cost was paid, put N +1/+1 counters on target land you control. That
land becomes a 0/0 Elemental creature with haste. It’s still a land.” Paying a spell’s awaken cost
follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f–h.
The key here being that the counters are placed on the land before it becomes a creature. Is this correct, and for the correct reason?
Correct for the right reasons (assuming the land isn't already a creature beforehand).
You follow instructions in the order written. The counters are placed on the noncreature land. Then, the land becomes a creature. Winding Constrictor's ability has no effect on those events.
I would assume the land would become a creature first and then counters placed on it, following the order of layers for continuous effects, and in that case it would get the additional counter from Winding Constrictor.
I would assume the land would become a creature first and then counters placed on it, following the order of layers for continuous effects, and in that case it would get the additional counter from Winding Constrictor.
How come this does not apply in this situation?
Because you follow the instructions of the card in order written, and awaken says to put the counters on first, why the ability is worded that way is not a rules question for this forum, you might want to ask that in magic general.
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I would assume the land would become a creature first and then counters placed on it, following the order of layers for continuous effects, and in that case it would get the additional counter from Winding Constrictor.
How come this does not apply in this situation?
The layers system has no bearing on the order in which the instructions of a resolving instant, sorcery or ability are followed. That system is for determining what an object which is currently being affected by multiple continuous effects looks like at a given point in time.
It is entirely possible for something to put +1/+1 counters on a noncreature permanent, then make it a creature after.
If Awaken was worded the other way around, it's probable that many people who aren't aware of how state-based actions work, would think that the land would be supposed to die while the spell is resolving, before getting the counters, and would be puzzled. Putting the counters first avoids this confusion.
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
Awaken's order of effects is similar to Lifecraft Awakening on a noncreature, nonvehicle artifact, so let's use it instead.
When the spell resolves, you follow the order written. First you put the counters on the artifact, then the artifact becomes an artifact creature with the subtype Construct.
Then, when you want to figure out what that permanent currently is, you use the layer system. What is its power and toughness? The Layer system is the one that says it is a X/X rather than a 0/0, because the layer for +1/+1 counters come after the layer for P/T setting effects. It doesn't mean you're 'putting' counters on it every time you want to know its power.
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The layers system is like the order of operations in math. If you have 2 * (3 + 5), the rules say you start with what is inside the parenthesis, so 3+5=8, 2*8=16. That doesn't mean the answer was 8 'first' and then 'became' 16; the answer was always only 16, you just follow this sequence of operations to figure it out.
Similarly, just because you look at the 0/0 first, and then at the X +1/+1 counters to figure out the land creature's current P/T, doesn't mean it was a necessarily 0/0 'first' that 'then' gained +1/+1.
Ruinous Path
Just wanting to confirm here; if I cast Ruinous Path for its Awaken cost, targeting one of my lands to receive counters, it will not get an additional counter from the Winding Constrictor.
The key here being that the counters are placed on the land before it becomes a creature. Is this correct, and for the correct reason?
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You follow instructions in the order written. The counters are placed on the noncreature land. Then, the land becomes a creature. Winding Constrictor's ability has no effect on those events.
How come this does not apply in this situation?
Because you follow the instructions of the card in order written, and awaken says to put the counters on first, why the ability is worded that way is not a rules question for this forum, you might want to ask that in magic general.
Graham from Loading Ready Run
It is entirely possible for something to put +1/+1 counters on a noncreature permanent, then make it a creature after.
If Awaken was worded the other way around, it's probable that many people who aren't aware of how state-based actions work, would think that the land would be supposed to die while the spell is resolving, before getting the counters, and would be puzzled. Putting the counters first avoids this confusion.
When the spell resolves, you follow the order written. First you put the counters on the artifact, then the artifact becomes an artifact creature with the subtype Construct.
Then, when you want to figure out what that permanent currently is, you use the layer system. What is its power and toughness? The Layer system is the one that says it is a X/X rather than a 0/0, because the layer for +1/+1 counters come after the layer for P/T setting effects. It doesn't mean you're 'putting' counters on it every time you want to know its power.
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The layers system is like the order of operations in math. If you have 2 * (3 + 5), the rules say you start with what is inside the parenthesis, so 3+5=8, 2*8=16. That doesn't mean the answer was 8 'first' and then 'became' 16; the answer was always only 16, you just follow this sequence of operations to figure it out.
Similarly, just because you look at the 0/0 first, and then at the X +1/+1 counters to figure out the land creature's current P/T, doesn't mean it was a necessarily 0/0 'first' that 'then' gained +1/+1.