I'm trying to understand the specifics of the rules here, so if you can refer to the rules passages it would be appreciated.
I know that if Marchesa and my other creatures have +1/+1 counters, Black Sun's Zenith allows them to return because they last existed with +1/+1 counters.
Would Marchesa taking the last counter from a creature with Graft allow the creature to return at the end step? (Vigean Graftmage)
Ashling won't be coming back. The counters will be removed from her whilst she her ability is resolving but she won't actually die until it has compeletly resolved and atleast 1 round of SBA as occured so the game will see her go to the graveyard as a 1/1 with x amount of damage marked on it.
For graft again the creature will not be coming if you remove the last +1/+1 counter as the game will see the creature as a 0/0 creature with no counters on it then ship it to the graveyard.
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I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
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No to both the Graft and Ashling questions. Ashling removes the counters so Marchesa sees no counters were on it when it died. Graft is the same thing. The counter is removed as part of the ability so when it dies, it has no counters on it.
The reason Marchesa works with Black Sun's Zenith is that nothing is removing the counters. Instead, +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out as part of a State Based Action. Dying due to having less than 0 toughness is also a State Based Action. In this scenario, dying due to having 0 toughness occurs before the State Based actions removing the +1/+1 counters so the creature dies with both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it and Marchesa sees that so it can bring the creature back.
I'm trying to understand the specifics of the rules here, so if you can refer to the rules passages it would be appreciated.
No, because Ashling's ability removes all +1/+1 counters if it resolves for the third time that turn. Ashling will die without having any +1/+1 counters due to lethal damage being marked on her when state based actions are checked after that third resolution has finished.
119.5. Damage dealt to a creature or planeswalker doesn’t destroy it. Likewise, the source of that
damage doesn’t destroy it. Rather, state-based actions may destroy a creature or planeswalker, or
otherwise put it into its owner’s graveyard, due to the results of the damage dealt to that permanent.
See rule 704.
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for
any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions
simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the
check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on
the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the
result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player
gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no statebased
actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are
waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
704.4. Unlike triggered abilities, state-based actions pay no attention to what happens during the
resolution of a spell or ability.
I know that if Marchesa and my other creatures have +1/+1 counters, Black Sun's Zenith allows them to return because they last existed with +1/+1 counters.
Would Marchesa taking the last counter from a creature with Graft allow the creature to return at the end step? (Vigean Graftmage)
No. You remove that last counter while the graft trigger is resolving, but the creature will die only afterwards, when state based actions are checked. At that time, there is no counter on the creature anymore, so it dies without having any and Marchesa doesn't trigger.
The annihilation of +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters is a state based action, and as rue 704.3 states, all state based actions happen simultaneously as a single event. That's why dying for having 0 or less toughness due to -1/-1 counters can make a creature die while also having +1/+1 counters.
Not trying to discredit you here but according to the last ruling on Cauldron Haze you are wrong about the +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters since "rulings" over-rule game rules.
"6/7/2013 If a creature with persist that has +1/+1 counters on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to cause it to be destroyed by lethal damage or put into its owner’s graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, persist won’t trigger and the card won’t return to the battlefield. That’s because persist checks the creature’s existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point."
Rulings don't overwrite the rules, they just spell out explicitly, what the rules already say.
Also, no one was disputing the the fact you're stating. But in both the case of Ashling and graft, the counters are removed before state based actions are checked and the creature dies, so it dies without counters.
I was talking about things having both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it enough to kill it as you were stating (having 0 or less toughness). I made no statement about the graft and Ashling as those points were already resolved. Rulings do override (not overwrite, that would mean they change the rules and rulings don't do that, unless Wizards decides to change the rules because of a ruling but I am sure that rarely happens) the functionality of cards and mechanics.
This is what I mean by "override":
The rules state the base rules for the game, but if a card has something printed on it that goes against the game rules it "overrides" the game rules but it doesn't change them. The same is true for a judge making a ruling except they can not only "override" the rules in a ruling but also override the function of a card through a ruling there are multiple cases of cards with functionally identical Oracle text but rulings say they work differently (this is probably more of an issue of Wizards not rescinding old rulings that were relevant to the original card text but are no longer relevant to the Oracle text) but still.
Then I have no idea what you mean by being wrong about +1/+1 counter and -1/-1 counters and citing the Cauldron Haze ruling. It is the exact same scenario as with Black Sun's Zenith above: the creature dies with both kinds of counters on it. The cited ruling emphasizes this, it doesn't contradict anything being said above. But Marchesa and persist have different trigger conditions. Marchesa triggers, because the creature had +1/+1 counters, which is a nessessary condition for the trigger. And persist doesn't trigger, because it had -1/-1 counters, and not having -1/-1 counters is a nessessary condition for it to trigger.
Not trying to discredit you here but according to the last ruling on Cauldron Haze you are wrong about the +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters since "rulings" over-rule game rules.
"6/7/2013 If a creature with persist that has +1/+1 counters on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to cause it to be destroyed by lethal damage or put into its owner’s graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, persist won’t trigger and the card won’t return to the battlefield. That’s because persist checks the creature’s existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point."
Rezzahan stated it correctly, and you are also stating it correctly. There is no dispute. A creature that has N +1/+1 counters and N -1/-1 counters with a base P/T of 0/0 will die as a result of state-based actions while simultaneously having all of its counters removed (704.5f & 704.5r). The last known state of the creature before it died was that it had counters, since both the removal of the counters and the dying happen simultaneously. This is why Marchesa and Black Sun Zenith work together as they do (she brings all the creatures back that had +1/+1 counters on them before the resolution of Black Sun Zenith) and why the persist creature won't return (it's considered to still have its -1/-1 counters when it dies). The two rulings are one and the same and consistent with each other.
Hmm, it seems I must have misread your statement that I originally responded to. I had read it as you saying that Marchesa, the Black Rose would not trigger because the counters were removed at the same time as the creature dying. Oh, well; guess I was too tired reading it the first time. Didn't mean to argue about something that was already agreed on.
I wasn't saying anything about 2 different rulings in that post. I had misread his post and already knew the ruling so I looked up a card that I figured might have said ruling listed on it, quoted the ruling, and posted a link without realizing he and I didn't disagree at all. The mention of "rulings" in my other post were not directly related to the ruling I quoted in the post you are quoting.
I'm trying to understand the specifics of the rules here, so if you can refer to the rules passages it would be appreciated.
I know that if Marchesa and my other creatures have +1/+1 counters, Black Sun's Zenith allows them to return because they last existed with +1/+1 counters.
Would Marchesa taking the last counter from a creature with Graft allow the creature to return at the end step? (Vigean Graftmage)
Thank you!
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
For graft again the creature will not be coming if you remove the last +1/+1 counter as the game will see the creature as a 0/0 creature with no counters on it then ship it to the graveyard.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
The reason Marchesa works with Black Sun's Zenith is that nothing is removing the counters. Instead, +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out as part of a State Based Action. Dying due to having less than 0 toughness is also a State Based Action. In this scenario, dying due to having 0 toughness occurs before the State Based actions removing the +1/+1 counters so the creature dies with both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it and Marchesa sees that so it can bring the creature back.
No, because Ashling's ability removes all +1/+1 counters if it resolves for the third time that turn. Ashling will die without having any +1/+1 counters due to lethal damage being marked on her when state based actions are checked after that third resolution has finished.
No. You remove that last counter while the graft trigger is resolving, but the creature will die only afterwards, when state based actions are checked. At that time, there is no counter on the creature anymore, so it dies without having any and Marchesa doesn't trigger.
The annihilation of +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters is a state based action, and as rue 704.3 states, all state based actions happen simultaneously as a single event. That's why dying for having 0 or less toughness due to -1/-1 counters can make a creature die while also having +1/+1 counters.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
"6/7/2013 If a creature with persist that has +1/+1 counters on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to cause it to be destroyed by lethal damage or put into its owner’s graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, persist won’t trigger and the card won’t return to the battlefield. That’s because persist checks the creature’s existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point."
Gather link:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=151060
Also, no one was disputing the the fact you're stating. But in both the case of Ashling and graft, the counters are removed before state based actions are checked and the creature dies, so it dies without counters.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
This is what I mean by "override":
The rules state the base rules for the game, but if a card has something printed on it that goes against the game rules it "overrides" the game rules but it doesn't change them. The same is true for a judge making a ruling except they can not only "override" the rules in a ruling but also override the function of a card through a ruling there are multiple cases of cards with functionally identical Oracle text but rulings say they work differently (this is probably more of an issue of Wizards not rescinding old rulings that were relevant to the original card text but are no longer relevant to the Oracle text) but still.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Rezzahan stated it correctly, and you are also stating it correctly. There is no dispute. A creature that has N +1/+1 counters and N -1/-1 counters with a base P/T of 0/0 will die as a result of state-based actions while simultaneously having all of its counters removed (704.5f & 704.5r). The last known state of the creature before it died was that it had counters, since both the removal of the counters and the dying happen simultaneously. This is why Marchesa and Black Sun Zenith work together as they do (she brings all the creatures back that had +1/+1 counters on them before the resolution of Black Sun Zenith) and why the persist creature won't return (it's considered to still have its -1/-1 counters when it dies). The two rulings are one and the same and consistent with each other.
I wasn't saying anything about 2 different rulings in that post. I had misread his post and already knew the ruling so I looked up a card that I figured might have said ruling listed on it, quoted the ruling, and posted a link without realizing he and I didn't disagree at all. The mention of "rulings" in my other post were not directly related to the ruling I quoted in the post you are quoting.