Hi everyone. I have searched for the rules to this interaction and found conflicting answers.
Plains with a Genju of the Fields attached. If I have a pump spell to play like Mutagenic Growth can I play it in a way to take advantage of the multiple activations of Genju to gain even more life?
Example: Activate Genju x3 (6 paid mana) then play MG and deal 4 damage. Do I collect 12 life? As Genju is a 4/7 for each instance.
Does the order of the activation of MG and the Genju activations matter?
Example: Activate Genju (pay 2), then activate MG, then activate Genju 2 more times (pay 4 mana). Then do damage. How much damage is dealt and life gained?
That works and the order of activation does not matter (well, you need to have the plains become a creature before you can even target it with mutagenic).
The buff from mutagenic will change the P/T in a later layer than it is set by the ability of Genju, and since it is the same object the buff wil stay on the plains-creature.
In your example 4 damage is dealt and 12 life is gained.
One good first step when wondering about some interctions is to check out any card specific rulings on the gatherer page or by ollowing the hotlinked cards on this site.
These are the card specificrulings for Genju, my bolding.
8/1/2005 When activated multiple times, it will have the triggered ability multiple times. When the animated Plains deals damage, the ability will trigger once for each copy of the ability. If, for example, you activate the ability three times, the Plains will deal two damage, and you'll gain six life.
8/1/2008 A noncreature permanent that turns into a creature can attack, and its {T} abilities can be activated, only if its controller has continuously controlled that permanent since the beginning of his or her most recent turn. It doesn't matter how long the permanent has been a creature.
10/1/2009 Activating the ability that turns it into a creature while it's already a creature will override any effects that set its power and/or toughness to a specific number. However, any effect that raises or lowers power and/or toughness (such as the effect created by Giant Growth, Glorious Anthem, or a +1/+1 counter) will continue to apply.
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You would gain 12 life. The order of activation doesn't matter at all. Each time you activate Genju of the Fields it gains one additional instance of the triggered ability and for each instance will trigger once on dealing damage and you gain life equal to the damage dealt.
Each time you resolve Genju of the Fields's activated ability, the enchanted Plains gains another instance of "Whenever this creature deals damage..." (within the meaning of C.R. 112.2c) until end of turn (see also C.R. 112.1a, 112.10). But the order you activate that ability and cast Mutagenic Growth doesn't matter (except to the extent that the enchanted Plains must be a creature in order to target it with Mutagenic Growth), since the 2/5 effect is always layered before the +2/+2 effect (C.R. 613.3b and 613.3c, respectively). (Note that the 2/5 effects will overwrite each other, unlike the +2/+2 effects if you cast multiple Mutagenic Growths on the same creature in the same turn.) However, if you resolve Genju of the Fields's activated ability multiple times in the same turn while the Aura is attached to the same Plains, that Plains will have multiple instances of "Whenever this creature deals damage..." (which is not the same as lifelink, however [review C.R. 702.15]), and each instance of that ability will trigger each time the Plains deals damage (not just combat damage) (C.R. 603.2, 112.2c).
Hi everyone. I have searched for the rules to this interaction and found conflicting answers.
Plains with a Genju of the Fields attached. If I have a pump spell to play like Mutagenic Growth can I play it in a way to take advantage of the multiple activations of Genju to gain even more life?
Example: Activate Genju x3 (6 paid mana) then play MG and deal 4 damage. Do I collect 12 life? As Genju is a 4/7 for each instance.
Correct each activation of the animation ability grants an instance of the triggered ability. Each one will fire when it deals damage. In Your scenario you would get 12 life
Does the order of the activation of MG and the Genju activations matter?
Example: Activate Genju (pay 2), then activate MG, then activate Genju 2 more times (pay 4 mana). Then do damage. How much damage is dealt and life gained?
The order you activate the abilites cast the spells does not matter as they are applied in different layers. Any ability that sets the P/T of of a creature is always applied before any ability/spell that modifies it like mutagenic vault.
Regardless of the order you cast the spells/activate the abilities the genju will end up as a 4/7 and you will get 16 life.
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I'm having a bit of trouble accepting that each activation grants a new instance of the ability.
The first ruling on the card is quite clear, though, but perhaps it was a bad ruling and should be revised.
The text on the card says the Plains becomes a creature with the ability. It doesn't say it gains the ability. Once the Plains has the ability, a second activation is redudant, because the Plains already is a creature with said ability. Just because this particular ability can be stacked, doesn't mean it should, and there's nothing in the mentioned rule 112.2c that says this effect replicates the ability if the Plains already has it.
I'm having a bit of trouble accepting that each activation grants a new instance of the ability.
The first ruling on the card is quite clear, though, but perhaps it was a bad ruling and should be revised.
The text on the card says the Plains becomes a creature with the ability. It doesn't say it gains the ability. Once the Plains has the ability, a second activation is redudant, because the Plains already is a creature with said ability. Just because this particular ability can be stacked, doesn't mean it should, and there's nothing in the mentioned rule 112.2c that says this effect replicates the ability if the Plains already has it.
The abilities of the other genjus are stackable. The difference is that multiple instances of say flying are redundant and doesn't do anything so there's no reason to point out that they get multiple instances in the card specific rulings(702.9c Multiple instances of flying on the same creature are redundant ).
The activation of the genju pretty much does two things, it makes the plains a 2/2 creature and it grants it an ability. It does not, however remove any other abilities (like something such as Sudden Spoiling or Darksteel Mutation) so the plains will keep all the old abilities while getting new ones.
And in the case with the white genju since it doesn't grant lifelink (which would also stack but extra instances of the ability doesn't do anything) but rather a trigger that gains you life you will get life multiple times.
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The formulation "becomes ... with [ability]" has been used on many cards; however, in most cases, the ability in question is a static ability. One of the few instances where the ability is a triggered ability is found in Raging Ravine, and Gatherer includes a ruling that explicitly clarifies that Raging Ravine can gain multiple instances of that ability when its last ability is activated multiple times. The alternative formulation "becomes ... and gains [ability]" has no functional difference (C.R. 112.1a, 112.10; compare Gideon, Battle-Forged with Gideon, Champion of Justice).
Plains with a Genju of the Fields attached. If I have a pump spell to play like Mutagenic Growth can I play it in a way to take advantage of the multiple activations of Genju to gain even more life?
Example: Activate Genju x3 (6 paid mana) then play MG and deal 4 damage. Do I collect 12 life? As Genju is a 4/7 for each instance.
Does the order of the activation of MG and the Genju activations matter?
Example: Activate Genju (pay 2), then activate MG, then activate Genju 2 more times (pay 4 mana). Then do damage. How much damage is dealt and life gained?
The buff from mutagenic will change the P/T in a later layer than it is set by the ability of Genju, and since it is the same object the buff wil stay on the plains-creature.
In your example 4 damage is dealt and 12 life is gained.
One good first step when wondering about some interctions is to check out any card specific rulings on the gatherer page or by ollowing the hotlinked cards on this site.
These are the card specificrulings for Genju, my bolding.
8/1/2005 When activated multiple times, it will have the triggered ability multiple times. When the animated Plains deals damage, the ability will trigger once for each copy of the ability. If, for example, you activate the ability three times, the Plains will deal two damage, and you'll gain six life.
8/1/2008 A noncreature permanent that turns into a creature can attack, and its {T} abilities can be activated, only if its controller has continuously controlled that permanent since the beginning of his or her most recent turn. It doesn't matter how long the permanent has been a creature.
10/1/2009 Activating the ability that turns it into a creature while it's already a creature will override any effects that set its power and/or toughness to a specific number. However, any effect that raises or lowers power and/or toughness (such as the effect created by Giant Growth, Glorious Anthem, or a +1/+1 counter) will continue to apply.
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EDIT (Jan. 20, 2017): Clarification.
EDIT (Jul. 28, 2018): Add rule citations.
Correct each activation of the animation ability grants an instance of the triggered ability. Each one will fire when it deals damage. In Your scenario you would get 12 life
The order you activate the abilites cast the spells does not matter as they are applied in different layers. Any ability that sets the P/T of of a creature is always applied before any ability/spell that modifies it like mutagenic vault.
Regardless of the order you cast the spells/activate the abilities the genju will end up as a 4/7 and you will get 16 life.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
The first ruling on the card is quite clear, though, but perhaps it was a bad ruling and should be revised.
The text on the card says the Plains becomes a creature with the ability. It doesn't say it gains the ability. Once the Plains has the ability, a second activation is redudant, because the Plains already is a creature with said ability. Just because this particular ability can be stacked, doesn't mean it should, and there's nothing in the mentioned rule 112.2c that says this effect replicates the ability if the Plains already has it.
I also looked at the other Genjus: Genju of the Realm, Genju of the Fens and Genju of the Falls, and none of the abilities they provide are stackable, so I very much doubt whoever created Genju of the Fields wanted it to allow the ability to be stacked with multiple activations.
The abilities of the other genjus are stackable. The difference is that multiple instances of say flying are redundant and doesn't do anything so there's no reason to point out that they get multiple instances in the card specific rulings(702.9c Multiple instances of flying on the same creature are redundant ).
The activation of the genju pretty much does two things, it makes the plains a 2/2 creature and it grants it an ability. It does not, however remove any other abilities (like something such as Sudden Spoiling or Darksteel Mutation) so the plains will keep all the old abilities while getting new ones.
And in the case with the white genju since it doesn't grant lifelink (which would also stack but extra instances of the ability doesn't do anything) but rather a trigger that gains you life you will get life multiple times.
Did I write something useful? Leave a like.
Any new cool Daretti cards printed in the latest set? Tell me about it!
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EDIT (Jul. 28, 2018): Add rule citations.