The point of "create" is to remove "put onto the battlefield" from "put a WHATEVER token onto the battlefield". I'm not sure why they didn't cut the word "token", "create a 1/1 Thopter artifact creature" etc, will we ever get to create nontoken things?
But that's not my question. My question is what happens if the effect creating tokens also sets some of their states. Say a token has to enter the battlefield tapped. Do we get "Create a WHATEVER token. It enters the battlefield tapped." or "Create a tapped WHATEVER token."?
Because the former defeats the point of the new template, but the later may confuse players into thinking that "tapped" is somehow a characteristic of the token, that it cannot untap or something. So, anyone has any idea which it will be?
The wording would be something like "Create a tapped ... token" (examples include Xathrid Necromancer and Army of the Damned; see gatherer.wizards.com, which already has updated text).
"Nontoken", not "noncreature". I do remember Clues. And actually before them there was Gold, and the equipment from the first Nahiri.
I was saying if we will never "create" a nontoken permanent, why not take out the word "token" from there? It'll need to stay in the reminder text for now, of course, but eventually it can be taken out, no?
"Nontoken", not "noncreature". I do remember Clues. And actually before them there was Gold, and the equipment from the first Nahiri.
I was saying if we will never "create" a nontoken permanent, why not take out the word "token" from there? It'll need to stay in the reminder text for now, of course, but eventually it can be taken out, no?
'Token' is basically a qualifier for the permanent, in that it is the opposite to 'card'. Something can be a creature token, or it can be a creature card, but not a creature token card.
You assume that because you understand how it works, everybody else does too. However, Magic survives because it has a constant influx of new players, who by definition have a shaky grasp of the rules. Adding an extra word to clarify what your card means is a relatively small price to pay.
In other words: I highly doubt the word 'token' will be cut from the wording, even if we will never see a card that lets us create a nontoken permanent (which is basically a certainty, because those cards would have to come from sowehere. 'Create' implies making something that did not exist before. With an actual card, it's just a zone change, so you'd 'put it onto the battlefield from' wherever it was before, not create it).
Of course, all of this goes more into philosophy of templating, not really game rules. Might be a good question for Matt Tabak though.
It is interesting to note that the SBA that causes copies of spells and cards to cease to exist applies everywhere but the stack and also the battlefield.
While Wizards has never written an effect that creates a copy of a permanent spell or card, the rules currently allow for it.
When such a copy resolves, it would be a nontoken permanent not represented by a card. A strange beast indeed.
Rules text templating is an okay topic for Magic Rulings as long as it's about explaining the system and showing how it's implemented, but we can't let this go too far outside of reality and into hypotheses. Time to lock this.
-MadMage
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
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But that's not my question. My question is what happens if the effect creating tokens also sets some of their states. Say a token has to enter the battlefield tapped. Do we get "Create a WHATEVER token. It enters the battlefield tapped." or "Create a tapped WHATEVER token."?
Because the former defeats the point of the new template, but the later may confuse players into thinking that "tapped" is somehow a characteristic of the token, that it cannot untap or something. So, anyone has any idea which it will be?
I was saying if we will never "create" a nontoken permanent, why not take out the word "token" from there? It'll need to stay in the reminder text for now, of course, but eventually it can be taken out, no?
'Token' is basically a qualifier for the permanent, in that it is the opposite to 'card'. Something can be a creature token, or it can be a creature card, but not a creature token card.
You assume that because you understand how it works, everybody else does too. However, Magic survives because it has a constant influx of new players, who by definition have a shaky grasp of the rules. Adding an extra word to clarify what your card means is a relatively small price to pay.
In other words: I highly doubt the word 'token' will be cut from the wording, even if we will never see a card that lets us create a nontoken permanent (which is basically a certainty, because those cards would have to come from sowehere. 'Create' implies making something that did not exist before. With an actual card, it's just a zone change, so you'd 'put it onto the battlefield from' wherever it was before, not create it).
Of course, all of this goes more into philosophy of templating, not really game rules. Might be a good question for Matt Tabak though.
While Wizards has never written an effect that creates a copy of a permanent spell or card, the rules currently allow for it.
When such a copy resolves, it would be a nontoken permanent not represented by a card. A strange beast indeed.
-MadMage