But first, hello forum, I am new. Registered because this question kept me up last night, in fact.
Elaborate scenario here:
I have Unstable Shapeshifter on the battlefield. For the record, the official text is "Whenever another creature enters the battlefield, Unstable Shapeshifter becomes a copy of that creature and gains this ability".
Someone, it doesn't matter who, puts a Myr Welder, so now I have a Welder with the shapeshifter ability.
I activate the Welder's first ability, exiling some vehicle. My Welder now has a crew ability, which I activate.
In response to the crew ability, another player casts a god. Prophet of Kruphix lets you do that, so let's say the god was Kruphix, God of Horizons.
That player's devotion was high enough that Kruphix was a creature, so my Welder is now a Kruphix. With the shapeshift ability, but that no longer matters.
My own devotion is not high enough, so my Kruphix is not a creature. Until the crew ability finally resolves and he becomes an artifact creature.
Unless I'm misreading Crew, my Kruphix would also stop being an enchantment, and I can't really tell whether he'd be legendary and/or a god. Those are interesting, of course, but the real question is, of course, what are its power and thoughness?
I see 5 possibilities:
- 0/1, because that's what is printed in the card.
- 4/7, because that's what Kruphix has while he's a creature.
- 1/4, because those were Welder's, whose crew ability we're talking about.
- Whatever is printed in the exiled vehicle, because that's where the crew ability was copied from.
- Undefined, because none of the above.
And if the last one, does my Kruphix die as a state-based action?
would remain a God assuming that under C.R. 205.1a, the phrase "for the entire time the object's card type is removed" is intended to mean "for the entire time the object doesn't have that card type" (so that Unstable Shapeshifter's creature types won't be removed since Unstable Shapeshifter remains a creature; but see, for example, this submission on Reddit.).
An effect that makes a permanent an "artifact creature" without specifying creature types doesn't remove its supertypes, subtypes, or other card types (C.R. 205.1b, 205.4b; review the crew ability at C.R. 702.122a).
Because Unstable Shapeshifter became a copy of Kruphix before it became an artifact creature, it will be a creature irrespective of Kruphix's abilities. (The effect that made Unstable Shapeshifter become a copy of Kruphix and therefore acquire Kruphix's first ability [C.R. 707.2, 613.7a] has an earlier timestamp than the effect that made it an "artifact creature" [C.R. 613.7b]; since both effects change card types [C.R. 613.1d], and neither depends on the other [C.R. 613.8a], they are applied in timestamp order, so the latter effect will override the former [C.R. 613.7].) When a permanent becomes a copy of a creature, it also acquires the latter's power and toughness from its copiable values (C.R. 707.2), so in this scenario, Unstable Shapeshifter's power and toughness will be 4/7 (they won't be those of the exiled card; in any case, Myr Welder's second ability refers only to that card's activated abilities, not its power and toughness).
EDIT (Jan. 12, 2017): Added citation to C.R. 702.121a, which is new to Kaladesh.
EDIT (Jan. 19, 2018): Clarification.
EDIT (Oct. 1, 2019): Edited to conform to rule change with Throne of Eldraine.
EDIT (Feb. 11, 2022): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT (Jul. 3, 2022): Correctness edit to first part of this comment.
EDIT (Jul. 11, 2022): Add link to Reddit submission.
Yeah, I was thinking of the various Gideons and land animators which say "it's still a (land/planeswalker)" and Phyrexian Metamorph, which specifies "in addition to its other types", had forgotten that artifact creatures have that last bit as a general rule. Excellent point, thanks.
I'd still like to hear about the godhood, if anyone knows. I think he'd keep it, for the same reason, but not sure.
So the ruling I was after is that crew reads the info from the permanent, as modified by any copy effects. Right?
But my question about state-based actions was for "if thoughness is Undefined", not about the legend rule. Let me construct another ridiculous scenario:
This time I have Identity Thief and 2 Strionic Resonators, my oponent has a crewed vehicle and an animated land, let's say Mutavault.
Thief attacks, the ability triggers and goes on the stack, targetting the vehicle. Or anything else, doesn't matter.
I activate the first resonator, copy the ability and exile the vehicle. I now have a vehicle, still with the thief's ability on the stack.
It's also not a creature, so I think it's removed from combat, and won't go back even if it returns to being a creature. Right?
Anyway, activate the crew ability, then the second resonator, copy thief's ability and target the vault.
I now have a mutavault, which is still not a creature. Crew ability resolves, my vault becomes an artifact land creature. This time it will be Undefined/Undefined, no?
So, does my vault go to the graveyard for having thoughness less than 1?
Under C.R. 205.1a, if an effect removes the creature card type from an object (such as in the case of Kruphix), any creature types are also removed from it, but only "for the entire time the object's card type is removed." And since Unstable Shapeshifter (which has become a copy of Kruphix) has regained the creature card type, it also regains the God creature type, since the creature card type is no longer "removed".
If you exile the Vehicle that's a creature with Identity Thief's ability (assuming it's a nontoken permanent), you still return that card to the battlefield even if it isn't a creature card ("the exiled card" on the delayed triggered ability refers to the card exiled due to Identity Thief's ability, regardless of its nature [C.R. 607.2a]).
If a noncreature non-Vehicle permanent becomes an artifact creature due to the crew ability, its power and toughness will be undefined, so are treated as 0/0 (C.R. 107.2). If a noncreature Vehicle becomes an artifact creature due to the crew ability, it will "immediately ha[ve] its printed power and toughness" (new C.R. 301.7b), so they won't be undefined.
EDIT (Jan. 5): Added rules basis for second paragraph.
EDIT (Jul. 19): Struck out certain text in second paragraph.
I've visited the Ask a Magic Judge channel to clarify the interpretation of C.R. 205.1a, and the user HSG answered that the interpretation of "for the entire time the object's card type is removed" as "for the entire time the object doesn't have that card type" is correct (but also stated that the answer is not "official"). Therefore, under this answer and in the scenario given in comment 1, Unstable Shapeshifter (which has become a copy of Kruphix) would have the God creature type after the crew ability resolves.
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Elaborate scenario here:
I have Unstable Shapeshifter on the battlefield. For the record, the official text is "Whenever another creature enters the battlefield, Unstable Shapeshifter becomes a copy of that creature and gains this ability".
Someone, it doesn't matter who, puts a Myr Welder, so now I have a Welder with the shapeshifter ability.
I activate the Welder's first ability, exiling some vehicle. My Welder now has a crew ability, which I activate.
In response to the crew ability, another player casts a god. Prophet of Kruphix lets you do that, so let's say the god was Kruphix, God of Horizons.
That player's devotion was high enough that Kruphix was a creature, so my Welder is now a Kruphix. With the shapeshift ability, but that no longer matters.
My own devotion is not high enough, so my Kruphix is not a creature. Until the crew ability finally resolves and he becomes an artifact creature.
Unless I'm misreading Crew, my Kruphix would also stop being an enchantment, and I can't really tell whether he'd be legendary and/or a god. Those are interesting, of course, but the real question is, of course, what are its power and thoughness?
I see 5 possibilities:
- 0/1, because that's what is printed in the card.
- 4/7, because that's what Kruphix has while he's a creature.
- 1/4, because those were Welder's, whose crew ability we're talking about.
- Whatever is printed in the exiled vehicle, because that's where the crew ability was copied from.
- Undefined, because none of the above.
And if the last one, does my Kruphix die as a state-based action?
An effect that makes a permanent an "artifact creature" without specifying creature types doesn't remove its supertypes, subtypes, or other card types (C.R. 205.1b, 205.4b; review the crew ability at C.R. 702.122a).
Because Unstable Shapeshifter became a copy of Kruphix before it became an artifact creature, it will be a creature irrespective of Kruphix's abilities. (The effect that made Unstable Shapeshifter become a copy of Kruphix and therefore acquire Kruphix's first ability [C.R. 707.2, 613.7a] has an earlier timestamp than the effect that made it an "artifact creature" [C.R. 613.7b]; since both effects change card types [C.R. 613.1d], and neither depends on the other [C.R. 613.8a], they are applied in timestamp order, so the latter effect will override the former [C.R. 613.7].) When a permanent becomes a copy of a creature, it also acquires the latter's power and toughness from its copiable values (C.R. 707.2), so in this scenario, Unstable Shapeshifter's power and toughness will be 4/7 (they won't be those of the exiled card; in any case, Myr Welder's second ability refers only to that card's activated abilities, not its power and toughness).
EDIT (Jan. 12, 2017): Added citation to C.R. 702.121a, which is new to Kaladesh.
EDIT (Jan. 19, 2018): Clarification.
EDIT (Oct. 1, 2019): Edited to conform to rule change with Throne of Eldraine.
EDIT (Feb. 11, 2022): Some rules were renumbered in the meantime.
EDIT (Jul. 3, 2022): Correctness edit to first part of this comment.
EDIT (Jul. 11, 2022): Add link to Reddit submission.
I'd still like to hear about the godhood, if anyone knows. I think he'd keep it, for the same reason, but not sure.
So the ruling I was after is that crew reads the info from the permanent, as modified by any copy effects. Right?
But my question about state-based actions was for "if thoughness is Undefined", not about the legend rule. Let me construct another ridiculous scenario:
This time I have Identity Thief and 2 Strionic Resonators, my oponent has a crewed vehicle and an animated land, let's say Mutavault.
Thief attacks, the ability triggers and goes on the stack, targetting the vehicle. Or anything else, doesn't matter.
I activate the first resonator, copy the ability and exile the vehicle. I now have a vehicle, still with the thief's ability on the stack.
It's also not a creature, so I think it's removed from combat, and won't go back even if it returns to being a creature. Right?
Anyway, activate the crew ability, then the second resonator, copy thief's ability and target the vault.
I now have a mutavault, which is still not a creature. Crew ability resolves, my vault becomes an artifact land creature. This time it will be Undefined/Undefined, no?
So, does my vault go to the graveyard for having thoughness less than 1?
If you exile the Vehicle that's a creature with Identity Thief's ability (assuming it's a nontoken permanent), you still return that card to the battlefield even if it isn't a creature card
("the exiled card" on the delayed triggered ability refers to the card exiled due to Identity Thief's ability, regardless of its nature [C.R. 607.2a]).If a noncreature non-Vehicle permanent becomes an artifact creature due to the crew ability, its power and toughness will be undefined, so are treated as 0/0 (C.R. 107.2). If a noncreature Vehicle becomes an artifact creature due to the crew ability, it will "immediately ha[ve] its printed power and toughness" (new C.R. 301.7b), so they won't be undefined.
EDIT (Jan. 5): Added rules basis for second paragraph.
EDIT (Jul. 19): Struck out certain text in second paragraph.