I have a question regarding the attack phase. As far as I know, magic has always been a game where priority matters and I came across an instance where a judge told me what I did was illegal but didn't quite explain it to me to where I could understand.
Here was the situation. I declare attack phase. He says ok, then I flashed in Heron's Grace Champion mainly so I could get a trigger on a Thalia's Lieutenant they cited some rule I had never heard before. Why can't I flash in a creature at that point? As far as I know the attack phase goes. 1. Declare combat 2. declare attackers 3. Declare blockers 4. Damage dealt 5. Cleanup. I have a chance to gain priority at every instance of my attack phase right?
Please I need two judges to rule on this, hopefully over level 1 thank you.
Public Mod Note
(MadMageQc):
Warning issued for bad form (asking for multiple judges of a certain level to answer).
During the Combat Phase, you have a number of steps:
Beginning of Combat
Declare Attackers
Declare Blockers
Combat Damage
End of Combat
Since Heron's Grace Champion has flash, you can flash it in during any of these steps during combat as long as you have priority. As long as you flash it in during the Declare Blockers step or prior, the additional counter Thalia's Lieutenant gets will affect how much damage he deals. If you flash it in during the Damage or End of Combat step, the counter will still be added, but damage has already been dealt for that turn.
Do you recall the rule the judge cited? Perhaps this was just a misunderstanding over some interaction?
On a side note: it is generally considered poor form to ask for a certain level judge to provide an answer. This is both because anyone can know and understand the rules even if they haven't taken the test and you can't confirm who among us is a judge anyway.
And, if the first person to answer is correct, you won't often see a second person chime in just to give the same answer.
Just saying, anyone on here can claim that they're a judge so I would not turn to the Internet if you really want a judge ruling.
However, I'm good good friends with quite a few judges and I had another friend that would play shenanigan type decks so a judge was used often on his decks. You do obtain priority during each step but you must declare which step something is happening in before you just do it.
The judge may have misunderstood what you were trying to do/ask. But I do believe what you were doing is correct.
I ask this because the person I was playing was the level 1 judge and I've seen him make bad calls before and am looking for a way to politely confront him about it.
So what I did was ok? He cited some fastening rule of play. I disagreed with him because I declared he said ok, so priority goes back the me, right? Then I flashed in and he said I couldn't cuz of some rule I had never heard of. It is a big deal to me because I feel like other people have had calls by him at my LGS as well. And I'm sure this was a bad call.
I stated during the declare combat part which is what he had a problem with.
specifically asking for only high-ranking judges to respond to a question is generally frowned upon. The right answer is the right answer, whether it's from Toby Elliott or someone else.
As part of the Magic Tournament Rules there are a set of established shortcuts. One of these shortcuts is the following:
A statement such as "I'm ready for combat" or "Declare attackers?" offers to keep passing priority until an opponent has priority in the beginning of combat step. Opponents are assumed to be acting then unless they specify otherwise.
In practice, pretty much any general statement about going to combat phase is considered to fall under this shortcut, including phrases like "beginning of combat?" The philosophy here is that they do not want the Active Player to be able to "trick" the Non-active player into acting during the main phase instead of the beginning of combat step, since it is so incredibly rare that the Non-Active Player actually wants to act at that point.
If the Active Player wants to take action in the Beginning of Combat step, they need to explicitly state as such: "Move to beginning of combat so I can cast a spell there" or "Move to combat phase, my Surrak, the Hunt Caller triggers."
For further information on the philosophy of why this shortcut works this way, there is an Article on the MagicJudges.org written by Kevin Desprez, Level 3 (former Level 5) Judge: [O]fficial: Attacking, blocking and shortcuts
But hold on, did you read my creature has FLASH? I declared, priority me, he says ok, priority him back over to me, I flash in the creature, I need to know exactly why this doesn't work, like I said I was playin a level 1 judge and this happened. I want to make sure I understand why this works or doesn't work that's why I want a higher judge, cuz maybe this isn't something level 1 judges know about specifically,
I ask this because the person I was playing was the level 1 judge and I've seen him make bad calls before and am looking for a way to politely confront him about it.
So what I did was ok? He cited some fastening rule of play. I disagreed with him because I declared he said ok, so priority goes back the me, right? Then I flashed in and he said I couldn't cuz of some rule I had never heard of. It is a big deal to me because I feel like other people have had calls by him at my LGS as well. And I'm sure this was a bad call.
It seems like what you did is fine. If your opponent was concerned about moving through steps too fast, he has every opportunity to ask you to rewind back to a step he wants to take an action in. This usually comes up in the case of something like one player saying "I attack you will all my creatures" without declaring the move to combat and the other player saying "wait, I want to Cryptic Command to tap down your creatures before you attack". This is the situation Reydien is describing.
In your case though, moving too fast doesn't really mean anything. If your opponent wanted to back up so they can perform an action before combat (or at the beginning of combat) they can do that, but they can't prevent you from still casting your creature just because you were "too fast". The creature has Flash and you will eventually get priority again so you can cast it.
[quote from="Darksteel_Eye »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/753472-question-on-timing-during-attack-phase?comment=4"]I ask this because the person I was playing was the level 1 judge and I've seen him make bad calls before and am looking for a way to politely confront him about it.
In your case though, moving too fast doesn't really mean anything. If your opponent wanted to back up so they can perform an action before combat (or at the beginning of combat) they can do that, but they can't prevent you from still casting your creature just because you were "too fast". The creature has Flash and you will eventually get priority again so you can cast it.
That is what I was trying to explain to him! He even said what I did I could get a warning at a major tournament. So I'm serious when I say I need to know, this was just at Friday Night Magic, not conspiracy obviously.
But hold on, did you read my creature has FLASH? I declared, priority me, he says ok, priority him back over to me, I flash in the creature, I need to know exactly why this doesn't work, like I said I was playin a level 1 judge and this happened. I want to make sure I understand why this works or doesn't work that's why I want a higher judge, cuz maybe this isn't something level 1 judges know about specifically,
Okay, reading again things sound ambiguous. Are you attempting to cast Heron's Grace Champion before you declare attackers, or after you declare attackers?
If it is after declaring attackers then yes, you gain priority in the "declare attackers" step (and also declare blockers step) and have an opportunity to cast a spell with flash.
If it is before declaring attackers then this falls under the shortcut philosophy I explained above. when you say "declare attackers phase" to your opponent, Officially that means "I would like to skip ahead until you (the non-active player) have priority in the beginning of combat step." If the opponent accepts that shortcut and then passes priority back, then you have missed your opportunity to cast any spells before declaring attackers. If you want to cast a spell or activate/trigger an ability in the beginning of combat step, you need to explicitly acknowledge it, something like "Cast Heron's Grace in the beginning of combat step?"
Edit: Also, the above shortcut stuff is specifically for Competitive Rules Enforcement Level, aka Premiere tournaments. Normal LGS events like Friday Night Magic or drafts are usually held at Regular REL which has more relaxed rules regarding these things, but ultimately it is up to the Head Judge on how such situations are handled.
i guess if you read that blog that what I did might be thought of like this....hmmmmm....but I guess it does not matter because I'll just flash in the Heron's Grace Champion as I declare attackers. Calling a judge please lol
That is what I was trying to explain to him! He even said what I did I could get a warning at a major tournament. So I'm serious when I say I need to know, this was just at Friday Night Magic, not conspiracy obviously.
Just to be clear; you are trying to cast it before attacking with the Lieutenant? As Reydien explains above, it does sound like you stated "Declare Attacks", which does move the game into the Declare Attackers step if your opponent accepts the shortcut, and then still tried to cast it during the Beginning of Combat Step. If so, you have technically committed an error as you are now past the Beginning of Combat Step. So, you should have attacked with the Lieutenant and then cast Heron's Grace. If you wanted to cast it immediately in the Beginning of Combat Step, Reydien has outlined the steps and communication you should use to do so.
A jugde may give you a warning (depending on the tournament level) but they will not stop you from casting Heron's Grace. They will just inform you where you went wrong and have you cast it in the right step (after attackers are declared).
It is a good idea to remember what step you are in though and to make sure you follow the procedures correctly. If you make it to the Declare Attackers step, the very first thing that is done is Declare Attackers. Then you can cast spells.
That is what I was trying to explain to him! He even said what I did I could get a warning at a major tournament. So I'm serious when I say I need to know, this was just at Friday Night Magic, not conspiracy obviously.
Just to be clear; you are trying to cast it before attacking with the Lieutenant? As Reydien explains above, it does sound like you stated "Declare Attacks", which does move the game into the Declare Attackers step if your opponent accepts the shortcut, and then still tried to cast it during the Beginning of Combat Step. If so, you have technically committed an error as you are now past the Beginning of Combat Step. So, you should have attacked with the Lieutenant and then cast Heron's Grace. If you wanted to cast it immediately in the Beginning of Combat Step, Reydien has outlined the steps and communication you should use to do so.
A jugde may give you a warning (depending on the tournament level) but they will not stop you from casting Heron's Grace. They will just inform you where you went wrong and have you cast it in the right step (after attackers are declared).
It is a good idea to remember what step you are in though and to make sure you follow the procedures correctly. If you make it to the Declare Attackers step, the very first thing that is done is Declare Attackers. Then you can cast spells.
Yes I realize this now, you declare combat it takes you right to the declare attackers, it s your oppente last chance to interact before the attackers are declared. I was under the understanding that I could cast another spell like I said, but as stated by the "politically correct/ nice, fair play guys". Says I need to say it like this "I declare my combat phase and flash in a Heron's Grace Champion to trigger my Thalia's Lieutenat". That sounds like a good way to say it???
If you want to cast something before attackers are declared, just say "Move to the Beginning of Combat" but don't actually cast anything yet. This lets your opponent know you want to move from the Main Phase but want to stop before you declare attackers. This also gives them an opportunity if they want to respond first (in case you have something like Goblin Rabblemaster out). If they say OK, then go ahead and cast your spell.
Again, in your scenario, your communication would have been fine had you just declared attackers and then cast Heron's Grace.
The steps can be complex when trying to get things like this right so I wouldn't worry too much about a potential mistake here (unless you keep making the same mistake). This sounds like a good one to make as it didn't really affect anything here and it (hopefully) led you to a better understand of the process. Next time this comes up you will be able to better communicate what you are trying to do.
Here was the situation. I declare attack phase. He says ok, then I flashed in Heron's Grace Champion mainly so I could get a trigger on a Thalia's Lieutenant they cited some rule I had never heard before. Why can't I flash in a creature at that point? As far as I know the attack phase goes. 1. Declare combat 2. declare attackers 3. Declare blockers 4. Damage dealt 5. Cleanup. I have a chance to gain priority at every instance of my attack phase right?
I will answer this question based on the comprehensive rules, which apply to unsanctioned as well as sanctioned games.
If you "declare attack phase", that is, declare the intention to attack, then by convention that is treated as a shortcut -- a proposal to give your opponent priority just before the declare attackers step (C.R. 719.2a), giving your opponent a chance to respond in between (C.R. 719.2b). If your opponent "says ok", that is, chooses not to respond, then the game moves forward as proposed (C.R. 719.2c). That's why once that happens, you generally won't have priority to cast any spells (including creature spells with flash) before you declare attackers (C.R. 508.1).
In sanctioned tournaments since Amonkhet, the Magic Tournament Rules changed so that after declaring the intention to attack "during [the] first main phase", if "the non-active player takes no action", "the active player will have priority at the beginning of combat", when a player can cast spells with flash (M.T.R. 4.2; C.R. 508.1, 116.1a, 702.8a, 304.5).
Here was the situation. I declare attack phase. He says ok, then I flashed in Heron's Grace Champion mainly so I could get a trigger on a Thalia's Lieutenant they cited some rule I had never heard before. Why can't I flash in a creature at that point? As far as I know the attack phase goes. 1. Declare combat 2. declare attackers 3. Declare blockers 4. Damage dealt 5. Cleanup. I have a chance to gain priority at every instance of my attack phase right?
Please I need two judges to rule on this, hopefully over level 1 thank you.
Beginning of Combat
Declare Attackers
Declare Blockers
Combat Damage
End of Combat
Since Heron's Grace Champion has flash, you can flash it in during any of these steps during combat as long as you have priority. As long as you flash it in during the Declare Blockers step or prior, the additional counter Thalia's Lieutenant gets will affect how much damage he deals. If you flash it in during the Damage or End of Combat step, the counter will still be added, but damage has already been dealt for that turn.
Do you recall the rule the judge cited? Perhaps this was just a misunderstanding over some interaction?
On a side note: it is generally considered poor form to ask for a certain level judge to provide an answer. This is both because anyone can know and understand the rules even if they haven't taken the test and you can't confirm who among us is a judge anyway.
And, if the first person to answer is correct, you won't often see a second person chime in just to give the same answer.
However, I'm good good friends with quite a few judges and I had another friend that would play shenanigan type decks so a judge was used often on his decks. You do obtain priority during each step but you must declare which step something is happening in before you just do it.
The judge may have misunderstood what you were trying to do/ask. But I do believe what you were doing is correct.
So what I did was ok? He cited some fastening rule of play. I disagreed with him because I declared he said ok, so priority goes back the me, right? Then I flashed in and he said I couldn't cuz of some rule I had never heard of. It is a big deal to me because I feel like other people have had calls by him at my LGS as well. And I'm sure this was a bad call.
I stated during the declare combat part which is what he had a problem with.
As part of the Magic Tournament Rules there are a set of established shortcuts. One of these shortcuts is the following:
In practice, pretty much any general statement about going to combat phase is considered to fall under this shortcut, including phrases like "beginning of combat?" The philosophy here is that they do not want the Active Player to be able to "trick" the Non-active player into acting during the main phase instead of the beginning of combat step, since it is so incredibly rare that the Non-Active Player actually wants to act at that point.
If the Active Player wants to take action in the Beginning of Combat step, they need to explicitly state as such: "Move to beginning of combat so I can cast a spell there" or "Move to combat phase, my Surrak, the Hunt Caller triggers."
For further information on the philosophy of why this shortcut works this way, there is an Article on the MagicJudges.org written by Kevin Desprez, Level 3 (former Level 5) Judge: [O]fficial: Attacking, blocking and shortcuts
In your case though, moving too fast doesn't really mean anything. If your opponent wanted to back up so they can perform an action before combat (or at the beginning of combat) they can do that, but they can't prevent you from still casting your creature just because you were "too fast". The creature has Flash and you will eventually get priority again so you can cast it.
That is what I was trying to explain to him! He even said what I did I could get a warning at a major tournament. So I'm serious when I say I need to know, this was just at Friday Night Magic, not conspiracy obviously.
Okay, reading again things sound ambiguous. Are you attempting to cast Heron's Grace Champion before you declare attackers, or after you declare attackers?
Edit: Also, the above shortcut stuff is specifically for Competitive Rules Enforcement Level, aka Premiere tournaments. Normal LGS events like Friday Night Magic or drafts are usually held at Regular REL which has more relaxed rules regarding these things, but ultimately it is up to the Head Judge on how such situations are handled.
A jugde may give you a warning (depending on the tournament level) but they will not stop you from casting Heron's Grace. They will just inform you where you went wrong and have you cast it in the right step (after attackers are declared).
It is a good idea to remember what step you are in though and to make sure you follow the procedures correctly. If you make it to the Declare Attackers step, the very first thing that is done is Declare Attackers. Then you can cast spells.
Yes I realize this now, you declare combat it takes you right to the declare attackers, it s your oppente last chance to interact before the attackers are declared. I was under the understanding that I could cast another spell like I said, but as stated by the "politically correct/ nice, fair play guys". Says I need to say it like this "I declare my combat phase and flash in a Heron's Grace Champion to trigger my Thalia's Lieutenat". That sounds like a good way to say it???
Again, in your scenario, your communication would have been fine had you just declared attackers and then cast Heron's Grace.
The steps can be complex when trying to get things like this right so I wouldn't worry too much about a potential mistake here (unless you keep making the same mistake). This sounds like a good one to make as it didn't really affect anything here and it (hopefully) led you to a better understand of the process. Next time this comes up you will be able to better communicate what you are trying to do.
I will answer this question based on the comprehensive rules, which apply to unsanctioned as well as sanctioned games.
If you "declare attack phase", that is, declare the intention to attack, then by convention that is treated as a shortcut -- a proposal to give your opponent priority just before the declare attackers step (C.R. 719.2a), giving your opponent a chance to respond in between (C.R. 719.2b). If your opponent "says ok", that is, chooses not to respond, then the game moves forward as proposed (C.R. 719.2c). That's why once that happens, you generally won't have priority to cast any spells (including creature spells with flash) before you declare attackers (C.R. 508.1).
EDIT (Jul. 5): See comment 17.
EDIT (Nov. 26, 2018): Edited.