In general, any card you can cast "without paying its mana cost" or for any alternative cost "rather than ... its mana cost" (C.R. 117.9) doesn't affect additional costs that could apply to that spell (C.R. 117.9d).
I was under the impression that I could not utilize functions that had to be fulfilled as part of the casting cost if I was playing a spell without paying it's cost.
For example, if I used Goblin Dark-Dwellers to cast Draconic Roar, I could not reveal a dragon card from my hand since it's in addition to the casting cost, and I was casting the card without paying it's cost.
However, Escalate spells usually have extra modes that you can target when casting, and then there is an extra cost for each additional mode. So I could cast Collective Brutality with GDD, target a creature with the -2/-2 mode, a player with the lose 2 life mode, and then I would have to discard a card?
I'm sorry if I'm being ignorant in some way. I just want to make sure I understand exactly how all of these mechanics work.
I was under the impression that I could not utilize functions that had to be fulfilled as part of the casting cost if I was playing a spell without paying it's cost.
For example, if I used Goblin Dark-Dwellers to cast Draconic Roar, I could not reveal a dragon card from my hand since it's in addition to the casting cost, and I was casting the card without paying it's cost.
However, Escalate spells usually have extra modes that you can target when casting, and then there is an extra cost for each additional mode. So I could cast Collective Brutality with GDD, target a creature with the -2/-2 mode, a player with the lose 2 life mode, and then I would have to discard a card?
I'm sorry if I'm being ignorant in some way. I just want to make sure I understand exactly how all of these mechanics work.
You actually can reveal a card to Draconic Roar. Casting a card without paying its mana cost prevents you from using alternate casting costs. So for example you cannot dash Zurgo, Bellstriker because the dash cost is an alternative to the mana cost. You also couldn't cast Elder Deep Fiend for its submerge cost if you wanted to because submerge is an alternative cost.
However additional costs are still payable and may be required. Tormenting Voice has an additional cost that is required so if you cast it with dwellers you still need to discard a card. Draconic Roar as I said above is an additional cost. Examples of additional costs are things like Escalate or Kicker.
"Without paying its mana cost" is actually an alternative cost, of which you can only apply one to any given spell. If you're instructed to cast a spell with that alternative cost, you're bound by that and cannot apply another. However, additional costs like escalate are exactly that, they are paid in addition to the fundamential cost (my own terminology, not an official term), which is either the mana cost as written in the upper right corner of the card, or an alternative cost.
The total cost is calculated thus:
mana cost/alternative cost + additional costs + cost increasers - cost reductions + Trinisphere
Alternative costs only change the very first part, so with GDD and similar "without paying the mana cost" casting, the cost calculation becomes:
nothing + additional costs + cost increasers - cost reductions + Trinisphere
What you have to understand here is that a card's mana cost is a defined characteristic of that card: it's what's printed in its upper right corner, nothing else. It doesn't encompass any other cost, including ones coming from abilities of the card itself, even those that happen to be in mana. "Without paying its mana cost" denotes an alternative cost of 'nothing' which replaces the mana cost. It doesn't cover any other cost, and you're still casting the card, which means you have to pay mandatory additional costs, and you may pay optional additional costs such as Escalate.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
I've asked Judges about the Draconic Roar GDD interactions specifically in the past. They told me I couldn't reveal a dragon. That might have changed the outcome of some games in competitive events. :/
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
EDIT (Feb. 14): Clarification.
For example, if I used Goblin Dark-Dwellers to cast Draconic Roar, I could not reveal a dragon card from my hand since it's in addition to the casting cost, and I was casting the card without paying it's cost.
However, Escalate spells usually have extra modes that you can target when casting, and then there is an extra cost for each additional mode. So I could cast Collective Brutality with GDD, target a creature with the -2/-2 mode, a player with the lose 2 life mode, and then I would have to discard a card?
I'm sorry if I'm being ignorant in some way. I just want to make sure I understand exactly how all of these mechanics work.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
You actually can reveal a card to Draconic Roar. Casting a card without paying its mana cost prevents you from using alternate casting costs. So for example you cannot dash Zurgo, Bellstriker because the dash cost is an alternative to the mana cost. You also couldn't cast Elder Deep Fiend for its submerge cost if you wanted to because submerge is an alternative cost.
However additional costs are still payable and may be required. Tormenting Voice has an additional cost that is required so if you cast it with dwellers you still need to discard a card. Draconic Roar as I said above is an additional cost. Examples of additional costs are things like Escalate or Kicker.
The total cost is calculated thus:
mana cost/alternative cost + additional costs + cost increasers - cost reductions + Trinisphere
Alternative costs only change the very first part, so with GDD and similar "without paying the mana cost" casting, the cost calculation becomes:
nothing + additional costs + cost increasers - cost reductions + Trinisphere
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF