This has been driving me up a wall when I play against some of the people in my Area. If you cast a spell for the Awaken cost and that awaken cost is more then 4 (e.g. Ruinous Path), can the Spell Queller still exile it considering the original CMC is 4 or under?
I really need an answer for this question before I continue playing certain cards. Thanks guys
Yes Spell Queller will still be able to exile it. Spell Queller only cares about the CMC of the card not how much mana is actually paid to cast. (Note that X has the value of whatever chosen while on the stack though)
Casting a spell for an alternative cost, such as awaken, doesn't change its mana cost or, by extension, converted mana cost (C.R. 118.9c, 202.3). The only thing that can change a spell's converted mana cost is the value of X chosen for the spell, and then only if the spell is on the stack and has X in its mana cost (which no cards with awaken currently have) (C.R. 202.3e).
EDIT (Aug. 8, 2018): One rule was renumbered with Commander 2018.
EDIT (Aug. 12, 2020): One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
Yes, it can. The converted mana cost of an object is derived solely from the mana cost, which is printed in the upper right corner of the card. What costs you end up actually paying doesn't change that. The only thing that makes the CMC vary is the value of X in a spell like Fireball, and only when the card is on the stack, in which case X is whatever value was chosen for it (again regardless of what was actually paid).
No, you can't exile a spell with Spell Queller if it's awaken cost was paid and it's greater than 4, even though the spell's CMC off the stack is 4 or less. Converted mana cost is calculated as stated several times here already as long as the spell is not on the stack. On the stack, CMC of a spell is equal to the sum of all the mana paid to cast it. If you paid the awaken cost, the spell's CMC is dependent on the awaken cost, not the card's printed cost. X also counts towards the CMC of a spell on the stack. You can even see that in Spell Queller's first oracle ruling.
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No, you can't exile a spell with Spell Queller if it's awaken cost was paid and it's greater than 4, even though the spell's CMC off the stack is 4 or less. Converted mana cost is calculated as stated several times here already as long as the spell is not on the stack. On the stack, CMC of a spell is equal to the sum of all the mana paid to cast it. If you paid the awaken cost, the spell's CMC is dependent on the awaken cost, not the card's printed cost.
This is wrong. A spell's converted mana cost isn't the same as how much mana you paid for it. It always comes from the Mana Cost of the spell, which is the printed mana symbols on the top corner of the card itself. You're describing the spell's total casting cost, which is not the same thing and doesn't change the spell's CMC.
Ruinous Path has a CMC of 3 in any zone it is, including as a spell on the stack. It doesn't matter if you cast it the normal way, or for its Awaken cost paying seven mana, or for free out of a Cascade effect, the CMC is still 3 so it can be exiled by Spell Queller.
X also counts towards the CMC of a spell on the stack. You can even see that in Spell Queller's first oracle ruling.
This is true, because the X is part of the printed mana cost itself, so you use the value of X (not how much you actually paid for it, mind you) when calculating the spell's CMC.
No, you can't exile a spell with Spell Queller if it's awaken cost was paid and it's greater than 4, even though the spell's CMC off the stack is 4 or less. Converted mana cost is calculated as stated several times here already as long as the spell is not on the stack. On the stack, CMC of a spell is equal to the sum of all the mana paid to cast it. If you paid the awaken cost, the spell's CMC is dependent on the awaken cost, not the card's printed cost. X also counts towards the CMC of a spell on the stack. You can even see that in Spell Queller's first oracle ruling.
That is wrong. CMC is always calculated from the mana cost, no matter where the object is.
202.3. The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana
cost, regardless of color.
No, you can't exile a spell with Spell Queller if it's awaken cost was paid and it's greater than 4, even though the spell's CMC off the stack is 4 or less. Converted mana cost is calculated as stated several times here already as long as the spell is not on the stack. On the stack, CMC of a spell is equal to the sum of all the mana paid to cast it. If you paid the awaken cost, the spell's CMC is dependent on the awaken cost, not the card's printed cost.
This is wrong. A spell's converted mana cost isn't the same as how much mana you paid for it. It always comes from the Mana Cost of the spell, which is the printed mana symbols on the top corner of the card itself. You're describing the spell's total casting cost, which is not the same thing and doesn't change the spell's CMC.
Ruinous Path has a CMC of 3 in any zone it is, including as a spell on the stack. It doesn't matter if you cast it the normal way, or for its Awaken cost paying seven mana, or for free out of a Cascade effect, the CMC is still 3 so it can be exiled by Spell Queller.
X also counts towards the CMC of a spell on the stack. You can even see that in Spell Queller's first oracle ruling.
This is true, because the X is part of the printed mana cost itself, so you use the value of X (not how much you actually paid for it, mind you) when calculating the spell's CMC.
I do admit I may be wrong here, but at least I got the X part right I do have a follow-up question, however: what about phyrexian mana and cards like Snuff Out? I have just re-read the comprehensive rules and if I understand it correctly, on-stack CMC of cards with phyrexian mana and alternative casting costs is not in any way influenced by your choice of payment. Dismember's CMC on the stack is always 3, even if I pay just 1 mana and 4 life; same with Snuff Out being cast by paying 4 life instead of actual mana. If I pay Goblin Bushwhacker's kicker, it's CMC is still 1, so it can't get Spell Snared. The only thing that influences CMC on stack is X in casting cost. Do I understand it correctly?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
standard: BUG The Baron (it doesn't work, but I try anyway)
I really need an answer for this question before I continue playing certain cards. Thanks guys
EDIT (Aug. 8, 2018): One rule was renumbered with Commander 2018.
EDIT (Aug. 12, 2020): One rule was renumbered in the meantime.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
BUG The Baron (it doesn't work, but I try anyway)
modern:
RGShaman Aggro
legacy:
UHigh Tide
German highlander:
BUG aggro control
EDH:
a positively unhealthy amount of decks
This is wrong. A spell's converted mana cost isn't the same as how much mana you paid for it. It always comes from the Mana Cost of the spell, which is the printed mana symbols on the top corner of the card itself. You're describing the spell's total casting cost, which is not the same thing and doesn't change the spell's CMC.
Ruinous Path has a CMC of 3 in any zone it is, including as a spell on the stack. It doesn't matter if you cast it the normal way, or for its Awaken cost paying seven mana, or for free out of a Cascade effect, the CMC is still 3 so it can be exiled by Spell Queller.
This is true, because the X is part of the printed mana cost itself, so you use the value of X (not how much you actually paid for it, mind you) when calculating the spell's CMC.
That is wrong. CMC is always calculated from the mana cost, no matter where the object is.
202.3. The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana
cost, regardless of color.
CMC of spells is not treated specially.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
I do admit I may be wrong here, but at least I got the X part right I do have a follow-up question, however: what about phyrexian mana and cards like Snuff Out? I have just re-read the comprehensive rules and if I understand it correctly, on-stack CMC of cards with phyrexian mana and alternative casting costs is not in any way influenced by your choice of payment. Dismember's CMC on the stack is always 3, even if I pay just 1 mana and 4 life; same with Snuff Out being cast by paying 4 life instead of actual mana. If I pay Goblin Bushwhacker's kicker, it's CMC is still 1, so it can't get Spell Snared. The only thing that influences CMC on stack is X in casting cost. Do I understand it correctly?
BUG The Baron (it doesn't work, but I try anyway)
modern:
RGShaman Aggro
legacy:
UHigh Tide
German highlander:
BUG aggro control
EDH:
a positively unhealthy amount of decks
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
BUG The Baron (it doesn't work, but I try anyway)
modern:
RGShaman Aggro
legacy:
UHigh Tide
German highlander:
BUG aggro control
EDH:
a positively unhealthy amount of decks